narnia Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 This table from Woody is a good go to reference (http://www.thctalk.com/cannabis-forum/showthread.php?86654-EC-ph-amp-water-levels-What-they-tell-you-and-how-to-react). [th]Water level[/th] [th]EC[/th] [th]PH[/th] [th]Solution[/th] Static Static Static Plant not feeding/drinking, change EC, check meters. Usually, lowering the EC a little should get the plant feeding again Static Static Rising Ph buffers probably raising ph. This is usual. Having a static water level is not though, so again, a slight reduction in EC or a res change should resolve this. Static Static Falling Usual cause of this is when media has been rinsed at a lower ph than you require. The other possibility is that too much CO2 has been pumped into the water. See Note 1. Change your res and look at the volume of air pumped plus look at your air source. Static Rising Static Plant is leeching nutrition, raise EC. Note 2 Static Rising Rising Plant leeching nutrition, Raise EC. An unusual state. The rising ph is probably caused by what nutrient leeching back. If these are alkaline, it will lead to the rise in ph. Could also be ph buffers. Static Rising Falling As above but be aware of the acid rain effect mentioned in note 1. Res change, plus increase in EC. Static Falling Static Plant eating but not drinking. Not ideal. Lower EC or res change Static Falling Rising As above but rising ph is a better sign. Lower EC slightly or res change. Static Falling Falling Falling ph along with falling EC but no drop in water level suggests a res change. Could also be an acid rain effect as per note 1. Depending on other symptoms, lowering EC after res change. Falling Static Static Perfect conditions. EC and ph are at the correct level. Falling Static Rising Normal state most people encounter. Nothing to worry about, carry on doing what you are doing unless other plant symptoms. Falling Static Falling Res change plus a change of EC. Lower EC if over 1.4, raise EC if lower than 1.0 Falling Rising Static Plant is drinking more than eating, lower EC. Falling Rising Rising Plant is drinking more than eating, lower EC Falling Rising Falling Plant is drinking more than eating, lower EC. Also, res change due to possible acid rain problem. Falling Falling Static Hungry plant, raise EC. Very good situation to be in. Nute buffers are working and plant is taking a balance of nutrients. Falling Falling Rising Almost as above, usually considered almost perfect, raise EC slightly. Falling Falling Falling Res change. Potential acid rain issue but plant is still eating & drinking. Raise EC on new res Note 1. When pumping air into a nutrient solution in order to add Dissolved Oxygen, not only oxygen is present, CO2 is also pumped in. If you live near a busy road, this may be higher than normal, so you may get a dropping ph quite often. I have noticed most of the growers who suffer from a falling ph in DWC tend to live in large cities. This may not be a link but it could be. When CO2 is added to water, it makes it more acidic. This is the precise process which causes acid rain, pollution from power stations etc pouring CO2 into the air, this mixes with the water vapour in clouds causing acid rain. Note 2. Most people assume that with a rising EC, it is the plants way of saying, I dont want more food, here, have some back. What is actually happening is this. Plants roots take in water/nutrients through a process called Osmosis. Effectively, if you think in terms of the roots having their own internal EC. The osmosis process will always try to balance out the EC's, taking from the higher side of the barrier and giving to the lower part. So if the EC of the nutrient solution is higher than the "internal EC", then food & water will flow from the solution to the roots, this is the normal process. If however, the EC of the solution is higher than the "internal EC", then the balancing will work the other way and nutrition will be leeched from the roots to the solution. A res change or increase in EC should resolve depending on the other factors such as ph and water levels. Note 3. Nutrients flow around a well hydrated plant much more effectively and faster than one which isnt as well hydrated. How can growers use this? By feeding at lower levels, the plant needs to take on more water in order to get the nutrition it requires. So by feeding at moderate levels, this forces the plant to drink more. By drinking more, it is better hydrated, because it is better hydrated, it needs more food, making it eat more. So feed at moderate levels rather than overly aggressive levels. The method of pushing the EC until you see signs of nute burn is damaging to the plants and although many growers use this method, I am not a fan though your plants are not mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 Thanks narnia, this is awesome info. Before I start with my analysis based on this info, I want to run EC vs PPM by you. Apparently there are different conversion factors to get from the one to the other, would it be a safe approximation to take EC 1 as equivalent to 500ppm and then work from there according to your plants? I don't think I have a CO2 (acid rain) problem, my pumps are in the open tent in a 3 x 3m room that gets ventilated twice a day far from any busy streets or other pollution. I can't easily permanently ventilate the entire room due to close proximity to neighbors and street. AK48: Falling(slowly) Static Falling. As my nutes are currently at around 390ppm I think more nutes to get it to 500-700ppm (EC 1-1.4) - Note 2. WR: Falling Falling Falling. Nute levels at 325ppm, so I think they need more nutes too to get EC up - Note 2. I dissolved some nutes and added to the tanks to raise both with appr. 100ppm as a stopgap and test. Will do a total res change again over the weekend. Thanks for the help narnia. I will take pics over weekend too - some nice progress since previous pics. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narnia Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 EC vs PPM is such a shit show. Sadly one just cannot assume x500 or x700 scale, with much confidence, obviously depending on the source. Frustrating. In general, yes, one can go on x500 conversion scale as this is widely used in USA, and therefore likely what we'll mostly see online, BUT x700 is prevalent too, so consider the source of the info. and try verify, is how I approach. A ~30% swing is pretty intense and not to be trifled with IMO. All you can verify 100% is what scale your meter/pen uses (if not an EC meter), that's the only concrete conversion without verification. The acid rain issue could also occur by sheer volume of air pumped into res. but agreed shouldn't be an issue unless there is a real high volume of air pumped into res, nightime plants will emit CO2 which will increase density. Re: Note 2 Be wary increasing EC/PPM too high too soon. It's well tempting. Sometimes lower levels are better. Bigger plants will need more food than what your seedlings have been getting, but it's more beneficial to stay on the lower end as girls *should* drink more and thereby grow faster. i.e. EC of 1.4 is high af for seedlings and small plants. As you've seen in your grow when res. has been dialed in, good growth with weaker solution. I'm not sure on a comparative point for osmosis point relative to plant size, but obviously seedling strength isn't going to cut it deeper into veg. As always keep an eye out for overfert signs as/if you increase solution strength, and consider all factors - such as environmental issues decreasing transpiration rates, etc. etc. - when referencing Woody's table, or anything really. You're welcome, glad to give some more resources. P.I.F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jland Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 A little something I learnt in the past, especially if growing DWC. Always rather refer to the ppm reading. If your pen reads both, you will notice checking reading that the EC reading will bounce around a lot, while the PPM reading will give quite a stable reading. This is caused by the air ration of the water (bubbles) and the EC could possibly drive you crazy. I follow the Hanna scale as for converting EC to PPM (ppmx2 =ec...) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narnia Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 @Jland eish, forgot about Eutech x640 scale. If everyone would just use the same scale the world would be a happier place. x500 or whichever. Re: pens, they function exactly the same way. So perhaps you're getting more stable readings on PPM/TDS vs EC due to higher resolution, or just different brand/type pens, rather than EC vs PPM. All TDS/PPM meters get an EC reading and convert as per their scale for conversion. PS: your girls are fattening up nicely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jland Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Ahoys Narina, very true! It would make life much simpler, couldn't agree more. This is something that drove me dilly when I first started growing and even more so with DWC (cause you checking all the time), but once you got it all tuned in its 'A' for away I feed according to my EC reading but will always check PPM before she gets her drink. It will vary anywhere between 0.050+- Above or below EC reading. This thread has inspired me to dust off the old bucket. Got some new gear arriving and sure she'll find a happy spot in the corner . Appreciate the complement Narina they'll be at there peak next week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 Just a quick pic with my cell of the progress WR doing well, AK48 struggling a bit. But that's the nature of learning. Having this forum to get feedback, speeds up the learning process though. Still on the trail of my PH problem, time will tell. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jland Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Ahoys Duracell. The ladies come back nicely, looking awesome! What are you feeding the AK48, same as the rhino? All my AK48 that I have grown are very light feeders, they squeal at the site of to much nutes and sensitive to too much nitrogen. There leaves will twist or you'll start noticing clawing of the tips ( or random leaf fingers) and slow growth.. Noticed a few tips in the pic. I only feed mine a max of 2/3 of what the should be getting. Just what I have experienced, not sure it will be of much help but looking good bro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 Thanks Jland, still playing with nute concentration to try and solve my dropping PH problem. Can you remember what ppm you fed your AK48s? Except for having to correct PH daily, the WRs are doing great and drinking well. The AK48s aren't drinking as much, but they are smaller than the WRs. I've come to the conclusion that I need more lights, but the budget isn't going to allow that for this grow. Manifolding on the WRs turned out very satisfactory. Trying to decide when to change to 12/12 with the big difference in size between the plants. My single 400W HID isn't going to support any huge plants so I think I'll give the WRs another week or two in veg and then go to 12/12, focus on getting a good harvest from the WRs and salvage what I can from the AK48. Practice makes perfect! The next grow will be Blackjack from Nirvana. Another one of the kids, Chica, showing her support. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG420za Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Digging the mainlining you go going there Duracell[/member] . It's looking great! If this is your 1st time mainlining, don't let the colas get too long, the length gives you support problems later. My plant couldn't stand on her own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jland Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Ahoys Duracell. Sorry bro been offline for a wee bit.. During veg I had them on about 300ppm/400ppm (excluding water reading, out my tap its 130ppm+- ), I would try and pump the a bit more and they would start curling. During flower I kept it at a 500ppm, max feed around week 5 and 6 was 600ppm and even then the tips showed dissatisfaction with that. Nowadays I just keep bit really light with her until she shows some needs. Growth rate and harvest has increased. I love the strain! See you into Nirvana I have not had any probs with any of there beans. Aurora is a beautiful plant to grow and yields are wow but not a fan of the smoke. The Northern light has some of the densest, frostiest bud I have ever grown and the bud to leaf ratio is awesome!! I want Papaya, swiss cheese and raspberry cough next. One thing I have learnt is you never stop learning with these babies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 Completely annihilated the piggy bank and got another 400W HID Should make life easier with the big size difference between plants and increase harvest. Screwed the HPS bulbs in today, going to do a res change tomorrow and switch to 12/12 - Really need to get to enjoying the fruits of my labour! To help with good air circulation, I stuck two 220V computer fans into my air inlet ducts. Still battling with falling PH, but I'm taking daily PH and PPM readings and trying to establish a pattern. "Plants go in the ground human, not in boxes filled with water. " Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budwizer Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 The aluminium foil covering the lid of your tote is the obvious cause of the pH fluctuation you're struggling with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narnia Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 The aluminium foil covering the lid of your tote is the obvious cause of the pH fluctuation you're struggling with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted August 27, 2017 Author Share Posted August 27, 2017 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budwizer Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted September 5, 2017 Author Share Posted September 5, 2017 The girls are at day 10 of 12/12 Did a defoliation, so they look a bit naked, but they jump back quickly. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narnia Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Nice one bro How's the pH handling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted September 6, 2017 Author Share Posted September 6, 2017 Still busy playing with nute concentrations up and down to find their happy place where the PH stays static. The AK48 is happy with less than the WR. WR drinking >5liters/day now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBKush Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Looking excellent! There's learning with every new venture. I must say with my first grow (basic) going I can atestatment to what you say about learning routine when micro managing everything. Glad to see everyone bounced back beautifully and keep to see your harvest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 My one WR definitely has a bit more Sativa coursing through her veins than the other - started flowering at 40cm 18 days ago and now she's standing at a proud 110cm! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted September 25, 2017 Author Share Posted September 25, 2017 Things are coming along nicely. Day 29 of flowering, there is a definite difference between my two WR girls - one is twice as tall as the other. Got them more or less happy at 500-550ppm and the AK48 at 450-500ppm with a PH 5.5-6.2. Started the dehumidifier yesterday to get the humidity to between 40-60% with the AC running fulltime. Temperatures range from 18deg in dark cycle to 26deg in light period. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hemp Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Wow, very nice results thus far. Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jland Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Looking good brother! Lots of happily stacked jellies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 Thanks guys, very chuffed with the results of my first attempt thus far! Getting really impatient to have a quality smoke and then to apply all I’ve learned in the next attempt. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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