LED vs HPS

[Justin Hemp]

Skyf for Africa

 

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[alemo]

THC is THC. For the price of those LEDs I'd hope they worked as advertised. I tried to go see one, but apparently they sold out quite quickly. Who the fuck spends that money on some semi-conductors?!

[Justin Hemp]

THC is THC. For the price of those LEDs I'd hope they worked as advertised. I tried to go see one, but apparently they sold out quite quickly. Who the fuck spends that money on some semi-conductors?!

Those that want their dank sold at R200 per gram all day long I suspect lol

 

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[alemo]

Yeah those that sell by the gram

[Budwizer]

[Justin Hemp]

@ Growopz, have you started on the side by side grow? If so, how are things looking?

 

 

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[Trailblazer420]

Yeah those that sell by the gram

Or those that smoke by the gram probably

 

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[growopz]

@Josh

Yeah, I spoke too soon there. My friend who was going to do the side by side bailed on the plan. He had some issue with nitrites or nitrates in the tap water (DWC hydro), when dam levels were scraping the barrel.

 

We were going to start over but then the clones bounced back after getting an RO filter, and he just wanted to grow them out. So the comparison is postponed :/

 

Learned some new things though, regarding leaf surface temperature, ambient temperature and relative humidity. Cape Town winter was pretty cold, and the ambient temperature had noticeable impact on growth. 700nm infrared, and heat is a missing link between LEDs and HPS. HPS is giving off large amounts of infrared (at least 10%, and up to 50% on some ceramic hps) whereas 3000K QBs only have about 5% infrared (though many photons will end up bouncing around and losing energy until they're infrared). So it's not clear what can be done about the 700nm infrared, other than using higher CRI LEDs, but it is clear that ambient temperature has to be raised (regulated), which raises leaf surface temperature indirectly. There's some good graphs with information about the 'green zone' ratio of ambient to leaf surface temperature (http://opennlabs.com/vpd/VPD_calculator.php) and I'll need to take this into account on the next try.

[Trickerst]

Yeah I have a temp probe in my canopy - running my lights at around 70% (3x Vero29 3500K COBs being driven at 2.1a).

 

My canopy temp is around 2 degrees hotter than the probe at the pot level.

[Grow Bro]

Fluence is a awesome light, with an awesome price attached. Can go wrong with 2.3 umol/j.

 

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I agree that COBs Fluence light is the way to go. I don't agree with that other dude about diodes being better. I call chicken poop, diodes won't beat cobs. However quantum boards will beat the cobs. So if you buy quantum boards or cobs you'll be better off. If you going with diode LED and you aren't planning on spending 15k it won't be worth it. Just ask Justin how my 700w Mars ii series performed. Like a wanker... Toss that wankstain in the closet and upgrading to Gavita DE HPS 6/750

 

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Hey Pat !!

I eventually found you bro.

I been wandering what u up to?

Been looking on other 420 forum for you.  

Just got a Gavita pro e series 1000w DE. 

I hear you using Gavita too now. Awesomeness!!

Im about to build a 2m x 2m x3m h grow room.  

And yes. LED not for me. Bought plenty. Got a 600w that gave airy heads. Now use for veg only. 

 

 

See you around. 

[greenkush]

Fluence is a awesome light, with an awesome price attached. Can go wrong with 2.3 umol/j.

 

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I agree that COBs Fluence light is the way to go. I don't agree with that other dude about diodes being better. I call chicken poop, diodes won't beat cobs. However quantum boards will beat the cobs. So if you buy quantum boards or cobs you'll be better off. If you going with diode LED and you aren't planning on spending 15k it won't be worth it. Just ask Justin how my 700w Mars ii series performed. Like a wanker... Toss that wankstain in the closet and upgrading to Gavita DE HPS 6/750

 

Sent from my G3312 using Tapatalk

Hey Pat !!

I eventually found you bro.

I been wandering what u up to?

Been looking on other 420 forum for you. 

Just got a Gavita pro e series 1000w DE.

I hear you using Gavita too now. Awesomeness!!

Im about to build a 2m x 2m x3m h grow room. 

And yes. LED not for me. Bought plenty. Got a 600w that gave airy heads. Now use for veg only.

 

 

See you around.

 

What LED did you use, saying "LED not for me", without actually stating the brand does not really mean much. There are many top performing LED lights  on the market. You just need to head over to the international forums to see the grows they're doing with them. If you're talking about those garbage lights from MARS and a few other brands then sure. Burples are crap, state 1000 watts lucky if they push out 200.

 

I am running two of my five quantum boards at the moment, each pushing out a true 300 watts per board (multimeter confirmed), they can be pushed to around 350-400 watts but they get pretty toasty then. Five of these in my tent with a combined output of 1520 watts, however I will dimm them down to 1000 watts to keep them cooler.

 

900 watts in the image attached, I'm waiting for my quantum sensor to arrive to get the actual readings.

[Grow Bro]

Fluence is a awesome light, with an awesome price attached. Can go wrong with 2.3 umol/j.

 

Sent from my ALE-L02 using Tapatalk

I agree that COBs Fluence light is the way to go. I don't agree with that other dude about diodes being better. I call chicken poop, diodes won't beat cobs. However quantum boards will beat the cobs. So if you buy quantum boards or cobs you'll be better off. If you going with diode LED and you aren't planning on spending 15k it won't be worth it. Just ask Justin how my 700w Mars ii series performed. Like a wanker... Toss that wankstain in the closet and upgrading to Gavita DE HPS 6/750

 

Sent from my G3312 using Tapatalk

Hey Pat !!

I eventually found you bro.

I been wandering what u up to?

Been looking on other 420 forum for you.  

Just got a Gavita pro e series 1000w DE.

I hear you using Gavita too now. Awesomeness!!

Im about to build a 2m x 2m x3m h grow room.  

And yes. LED not for me. Bought plenty. Got a 600w that gave airy heads. Now use for veg only.

 

 

See you around.

 

What LED did you use, saying "LED not for me", without actually stating the brand does not really mean much. There are many top performing LED lights  on the market. You just need to head over to the international forums to see the grows they're doing with them. If you're talking about those garbage lights from MARS and a few other brands then sure. Burples are crap, state 1000 watts lucky if they push out 200.

 

I am running two of my five quantum boards at the moment, each pushing out a true 300 watts per board (multimeter confirmed), they can be pushed to around 350-400 watts but they get pretty toasty then. Five of these in my tent with a combined output of 1520 watts, however I will dimm them down to 1000 watts to keep them cooler.

 

900 watts in the image attached, I'm waiting for my quantum sensor to arrive to get the actual readings.

 

 

Definitely was not quantums.

Was what was available at the time.

Yes i have seen some great grows on international  420.

I've heard about your lights. But gone the old trusted route.

Hopefully one day we can compare nugs always open to new things  

[greenkush]

Fluence is a awesome light, with an awesome price attached. Can go wrong with 2.3 umol/j.

 

Sent from my ALE-L02 using Tapatalk

I agree that COBs Fluence light is the way to go. I don't agree with that other dude about diodes being better. I call chicken poop, diodes won't beat cobs. However quantum boards will beat the cobs. So if you buy quantum boards or cobs you'll be better off. If you going with diode LED and you aren't planning on spending 15k it won't be worth it. Just ask Justin how my 700w Mars ii series performed. Like a wanker... Toss that wankstain in the closet and upgrading to Gavita DE HPS 6/750

 

Sent from my G3312 using Tapatalk

Hey Pat !!

I eventually found you bro.

I been wandering what u up to?

Been looking on other 420 forum for you. 

Just got a Gavita pro e series 1000w DE.

I hear you using Gavita too now. Awesomeness!!

Im about to build a 2m x 2m x3m h grow room. 

And yes. LED not for me. Bought plenty. Got a 600w that gave airy heads. Now use for veg only.

 

 

See you around.

 

What LED did you use, saying "LED not for me", without actually stating the brand does not really mean much. There are many top performing LED lights  on the market. You just need to head over to the international forums to see the grows they're doing with them. If you're talking about those garbage lights from MARS and a few other brands then sure. Burples are crap, state 1000 watts lucky if they push out 200.

 

I am running two of my five quantum boards at the moment, each pushing out a true 300 watts per board (multimeter confirmed), they can be pushed to around 350-400 watts but they get pretty toasty then. Five of these in my tent with a combined output of 1520 watts, however I will dimm them down to 1000 watts to keep them cooler.

 

900 watts in the image attached, I'm waiting for my quantum sensor to arrive to get the actual readings.

 

 

Definitely was not quantums.

Was what was available at the time.

Yes i have seen some great grows on international  420.

I've heard about your lights. But gone the old trusted route.

Hopefully one day we can compare nugs always open to new things 

 

Perhaps, what I lack in in yield I’ll make up in electricity savings. Considering I’m primarily growing to breed and cross breed I’m okay with that.

[Budwizer]

On 5/23/2018 at 8:24 PM, growopz said:

We did a bit of a write-up on this topic, if you want a summary of [plant and lighting science].

and there's also "What's the difference between LED/HID/CFL technologies?" further down the [main FAQ].

 

We will be starting a side by side grow next week, when the clones are ready.

 

In the one tent, 3W LEDs (monochromatic Epileds and white Bridgelux) in a 2:1 ratio of our flowering spectrum to our veg spectrum.

And in the other tent, our Samsung QBs & Cree reds, done in the horticultural spectrum (2 white : 1 red) as advised by Cree.  

 

600W vs 600W.  

 

The QBs and Crees should trounce the 3W LEDs, but it'll be a good experiment anyway.  

I expect the monochromatics should compete well in veg, but that the QBs & Crees will crush it in flower.

 

In my experience so far, Vero29 COBs plus Cree XPE-HEs get over 1g/W pretty easily.

One customer recently claimed 1.4g/W, which is very good.  

 

This will be our first test of the QBs & reds, and I expect similar results to the COBs + reds.

 

I have never actually used HPS, but in my opinion, it's old tech.  Double ended gavita pro has max 40% wall plug efficiency before taking into account cooling.  That just won't compete with 60-70% wall plug efficient LEDs.  Combining LED and HPS is pretty successful, anecdotally.  One customer says they're getting superb results with 3W LEDs supplemented with 15 minutes of HPS every 2 hours.

 

PS. Budwizer's claim, "1000 umol at about 1 meter", is very unlikely (the VyprX technical spec says 750uMol at 45cm which would be measured dead center.  At double that distance, it would be a quarter of that.  Less than 200 uMol).

So? What happened on your comparison? 

[growopz]

Yeah, the customer who was going to do the side by side didn't go through with it, so I just have the results, from one grow to another. Not exactly science, since primary strain changed between grows too. Both indica strains though.

In a 1.2*1.2m, Their g/W went up from 0.6 g/W with 600W of 3W LEDs, to 1.1 g/W with the 600W QB&reds fixture. (10 weeks from rooted clone to harvest).

The results are consistent with the electrical efficiencies of the lights, (~30% vs ~56%), for what it's worth. 

[alemo]

LEDs are for people who know more than they grow. 

[NPKGuy]

I am not a big fan of led's at the moment purely due the price to run a decent cob setup.

I run 2x600w Hps in a 1.5x1.5m tent and both those lights+ bulbs+ballasts were a fraction the cost of the admittedly fong kong lights I bought before.

When a multi chip led has a failure it starts a fun game of fault finding and if your chip failed under an acrylic lens then unlucky for you but the lens will have probably melted too vs either a the bulb is dead or b the ballast is dead.

Cheap leds at 70lm a Watt will not compete with Hps especially once they start breaking down after a few grows and then you kicking yourself because the increased cost for longevity was not worth it.

Now the expensive kind with a proven track record are great but again very expensive and  I would only consider them If I plenty extra cash fell on my lap or for what ever reason I could not manage my temps then they would for sure be worth it.

For a newbie who will face many trials and tribulations on their first few grows and then only really start to get the hang of producing top tier bud once these lessons have been learned. Do not go in and buy 15-20K worth of lighting as you will fuck something in your grow up eg over-watering/loved to death and then what was the point of this massive investment. Get a few grows under a 400w Hps or a 600w Hps before you consider a good quality led light or a diy cob equivalent but for heavens sake do not waste your cash on fong kong led's.  Right now I have 3 shells that are all sitting doing nothing because I will never repair them.... and that was about 9k from aliexpress a few years ago for 3 x bsled sp 140 which if some remember was rated almost as good as the hydrogrow led it copied.  I managed 3 good runs before all the leds started to fail with the first being those uv/ir chips then the blues started to go and of course the one fan driver died so all the chips blew...

Stick to proven cost effective lighting and if you are a experienced grower then you already know what your setup needs.  I for one would like to run an additional 200w true of led broken down into 4 50w cobs but of one of those spectrum enhancers for led so lots of blue and a bit of 660nm red that the hps lack. 1400w of juice in a 1.5x1.5 tent would be pushing the limits without extra co2.  A efficient 600w sodium plus led spectrum enhancers would be a force to be reckoned with I believe.

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by NPKGuy

[McB]

very interesting and at times entertaining read so far.

 i'm still solidly in the hps camp but i will say that the sprinkler analogy makes sense.

having grown with a cidly apollo 8 and now since under hps i can honestly say there isnt really a comparison, but that isn't the arguement here. 260w vs 400w isnt really fair.

facing the exact issue mentioned above, lost a bank of leds, now the fault finding begins

the qb and similar smd appeal to my fidget-er\gadgety side and i will probably convert a cfl micro cab to them in time just for shits and giggles as i seem to have a stupid amount of random heat syncs and coolers lying around from gaming/overclocking days

surely cobs required headroom cuts them out for your average tent or god forbid closet grower, my thinking is you would have to dim so heavily to get it to work in available headroom you would lose a lot of oomph

 

[NPKGuy]

5 minutes ago, McB said:

very interesting and at times entertaining read so far.

 i'm still solidly in the hps camp but i will say that the sprinkler analogy makes sense.

having grown with a cidly apollo 8 and now since under hps i can honestly say there isnt really a comparison, but that isn't the arguement here. 260w vs 400w isnt really fair.

facing the exact issue mentioned above, lost a bank of leds, now the fault finding begins

the qb and similar smd appeal to my fidget-er\gadgety side and i will probably convert a cfl micro cab to them in time just for shits and giggles as i seem to have a stupid amount of random heat syncs and coolers lying around from gaming/overclocking days

surely cobs required headroom cuts them out for your average tent or god forbid closet grower, my thinking is you would have to dim so heavily to get it to work in available headroom you would lose a lot of oomph

 

Good luck on that fault finding....  been there. 

Cobs running at 50w adequately spaced will still require less head room than large sodium's.  I have a mate uk side who uses those vero29 chips to great success in 1.2m tents.  Once we have access here in Sa to more of the global market offerings without needing to spend 30-40% markup over int prices, ill prob do the switch as Ill need less airflow and therefore less fan power which would make my tent quieter.  I don't mind spending the extra on eskom due to the fact we still pay very a very low price internationally for our electricity and I do about 2 grows a year which keeps me plenty stocked up.

[McB]

18 minutes ago, NPKGuy said:

Good luck on that fault finding....  been there. 

Cobs running at 50w adequately spaced will still require less head room than large sodium's.  I have a mate uk side who uses those vero29 chips to great success in 1.2m tents.  Once we have access here in Sa to more of the global market offerings without needing to spend 30-40% markup over int prices, ill prob do the switch as Ill need less airflow and therefore less fan power which would make my tent quieter.  I don't mind spending the extra on eskom due to the fact we still pay very a very low price internationally for our electricity and I do about 2 grows a year which keeps me plenty stocked up.

im with you on the cooling saving, noticing the difference cooling a 400w hps over the panel by a lot.

seen a few recommendations for the vero's in smaller spaces, mostly international though.

the scary thing is i did a little price comparison exercise with pandagro co out of china(i assume)

building from locally sourced components, excluding shipping,using cxb3590, glass lense and meanwell driver i cannot affordably beat their prices diy!

thier diy offering at 75w craps all over my rs components cart total. sadly this doesn't take customs into account.

 

[greenkush]

RS are notorious for over charging, just get your components that you can from digikey. https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/vero-29-array-series/43475   , https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/clu048/60053 , https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/l/luminus-devices/generation-3-led-cob

Edited November 27, 2018 by greenkush

[Budwizer]

I’m doing my first run with all LED, seed to harvest. Day 26 of 12/12.

[greenkush]

On 11/27/2018 at 10:00 PM, Budwizer said:

I’m doing my first run with all LED, seed to harvest. Day 26 of 12/12.

Looks awesome, I'll never switch from LED.

[Oolong83]

@NPKGuy yo dude, i get you. Ive been struggling with this question of which is better. I only been growing with LED, but noticed the bud never solid, always airy. So im strongly considering switching to HID. 

So straight up, HID or LED for big solid buds?

[420SA]

10 minutes ago, Oolong83 said:

@NPKGuy yo dude, i get you. Ive been struggling with this question of which is better. I only been growing with LED, but noticed the bud never solid, always airy. So im strongly considering switching to HID. 

So straight up, HID or LED for big solid buds?

I'm not saying it isn't the light but there are other factors that can also lead to airy bud, namely high heat. How's the temps in your grow area?