GTH #1 Choco NL F4

[Totemic]

Two days before full moon, and my Choco NL F4 seeds are being planted today. 

Got gifted Ghost Train Haze #1 seeds, hoping for a decent male and female among them. Interested to see how these two would breed together.

[Totemic]

Due for a small update. 

Sadly none of my GTH seeds sprouted, but I'm hoping for a female clone from the source to include in this winter's run.

11 May 

Well over 200 of my F4 beans sprouted on a farm neither here nor there.

Haven't been to visit since, but going through this week. So excited to just get out there and away from the suburbs. I want to go and remove all the males and do some other thinning. All these little ones have since been planted in the ground and well on their way. Will update on the visit.

Then I have 2 of my F4 girls here, chosen from 20. I finally have a female with morphed phyllotaxy. There have been hundreds but never a female. These two, are destined to be treated with STS and will be my Choco pollen donors that are pollinating clones taken from the farm.

These are in soil I got from @SkunkPharm, and they are loving it. Thanks for helping a brother out when lockdown was at high tide. I haven't fed once, and these were transplanted to 15l pots from 5l this morning in the same soil, so giving it a proper test.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Totemic

[Totemic]

Still haven't gotten round to the farm. This weekend seems clear of cold fronts.

Got a really smelly GTH male though. Being transplanted tomorrow and going into 12/12.

[Totemic]

2 weeks later, top clones taken. Given the first STS spray to a single branch, marked in the pic. Going into 12/12 from tonight. 

The GTH male is coming on slowly. Flowering him outside so the temps are affecting him.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Totemic

[GGG]

Nice Vibrant plants you got going there

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

[Totemic]

Was a beautiful morning for a farm visit. My chocos have a great head start for the season and I'm sure are going to turn into trees. There are way more females than anticipated buy that's not a bad thing now is it. All the females are strong but there are a few that already stand out. 

These are about 3-4 weeks in flower, and quite probably will start revegging soon. There is another batch of 100 being planted now for the summer in case they decide to finish up.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Totemic

[afternoon blazer]

Wtf @Totemic 100

[Totemic]

7 minutes ago, afternoon blazer said:

Wtf @Totemic 100

Pheno hunting bru. Pheno hunting.

[afternoon blazer]

4 minutes ago, Totemic said:

Pheno hunting bru. Pheno hunting.

Im sorry. But i have to.

 

By the title - pheno hunting

Basically means to me. Finding good strains.  But @Totemic would be so kind as to explain abit more for me. And other noobz.

What it really means and the process

[Totemic]

A phenotype is a variable expression within a strain. While a strain is an expression of the genotype. So when I'm pheno hunting, I'm looking for the best phenotype in that population to carry the genes to the next generation.  

[afternoon blazer]

So would i be correct in saying. U basically look for the best genetics from thos plants( best grow. best buds. best colours. best taste. Best size. Etc)

 

And then u use that to breed a totally new strain??

[Totemic]

Well you can do that with the pheno you choose.

But what I'm doing here is breeding one strain to IBL(Inbred Line) or F10 generation. F generations (F for filial, meaning inline...crossing a male and female from the same strain and same generation). Each time you do this, you move up an F level. This generation is the F4 generation, and taken me 6 years to accomplish. 

Why do I want to do this? 

Stabilizing genetics. Creating true breeding plants that will breed true plant after plant. There is still variation but many traits become locked in.

From a breeding point of view the Chocolope NL line is the foundation I am now starting use to outcross(creating new strains) 

So out of this population I will choose the best female(s) and they will breed the F5 generation.

I am also out crossing to a ghost train haze male, which will be a new strain.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Totemic

[afternoon blazer]

8 minutes ago, Totemic said:

Well you can do that with the pheno you choose.

But what I'm doing here is breeding one strain to IBL(Inbred Line) or F10 generation. F generations (F for filial, meaning inline...crossing a male and female from the same strain and same generation). Each time you do this, you move up an F level. This generation is the F4 generation, and taken me 6 years to accomplish. 

Why do I want to do this? 

Stabilizing genetics. Creating true breeding plants that will breed true plant after plant. There is still variation but many traits become locked in.

From a breeding point of view the Chocolope NL line is the foundation I am now starting use to outcross(creating new strains)

Holy shit bro. 

 

Hats of to u. Some serious dedication and commitment. 

 

So u at F4 now. Roughly another 9 years to go. 

I wish u the best of luck brother. I hope im around when u accomplish this goal. For many reasons. 

But mainly to get a piece of that F10 goodies...

 

And thanks alot for the detailed explaination. Helped a ton.

 

But i know how it is with people who are passionate about things. They dont mind

Edited August 5, 2020 by afternoon blazer
Forgot to say thanks.

[Totemic]

It will probably be about 6 years if I run a generation every year without hiccups. It gets much easier from F4 where I am. The F2 and F3 generations are rough to sift through and find the right plants. One wrong male selection and you need to redo it.

I too hope to be around to achieve it. 

[oros da boss]

@Totemic Good evening, this looks like a fun project.

I have a quick question for you about whorled phlotaxy. Why did you choose that particular one for a STS spray reversal? 

I have come across a few of them and they have always stayed stunted in veg and never flowered as well as their sistren.  Whenever I see those 3 way seedlings I kill them now. 

[Totemic]

I've only ever come across males with the whorled phyllotaxy for this cross. This is the first time its a female, and thought I'd include her to see what the offspring would do. I find genetically odd plants interesting and one never knows what other recessive genetic trait "switches" are also on or will be carried to the offspring.

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Totemic

[oros da boss]

@Totemic good day, thanks for the reply and lets hope she  turns into a winner. If this mutation is a recessive trait, then is it likely to go back into hiding, in your subsequent generations?

One more question, if you have the time, please. What do you do to maintain your yield and vigour as you move along? Are inbred lines notorious for suffering from inbred depression? 

[Totemic]

I've always got time for Cannabis. 

I do expect the mutation to recess yes,  I'm not selecting for the morphed phyllotaxy, but like i say just poking the bear to see if there are any other interesting alleles activated.

Yield and vigor are on my list of selection criteria, along with structure. I have at the F4 generation pretty much locked in structure, and my focus will now shift to yield and potency. I might need to back cross (Cube) as I go along to lock them down.

Inbred depression is a problem yes. I buffer this in two ways. Running two separate but familial lines(they split at the F2, with the one being more sativa dominant and the other more indica) both these lines drift in other genetic directions. And the second thing is a large population. The point is to keep the population as diverse as possible, while not losing the strain as such. 

Then it just comes back to your selections. Any plants that do suffer depression or performance issues are not selected.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Totemic

[oros da boss]

@Totemic 

1 hour ago, Totemic said:

just poking the bear to see if there are any other interesting alleles activated.

 poke freely, you never know what might come up. 

 

1 hour ago, Totemic said:

I might need to back cross (Cube)

Do you back cross to the original parental plants (great great grandparents) or do something else?

The rest makes a lot of sense. A large population to test, keep the best and reject the rest. 

Does it help to eliminate some time and another roll of the dice, when you reverse the females? Speed up the process and reduce some of the guesswork.

Have you ever looked at how other plant breeders produce feminised seeds? Cucumber growers will hybridise until they achieve an all female plant. They call them parthenocarpic seed and when you buy them and open the packet there will be some feminised and some regular seeds in seperate envelopes. They still include the male-bearing  plants, to ensure pollination of the crop.

[Totemic]

1 minute ago, oros da boss said:

Do you back cross to the original parental plants (great great grandparents) or do something else?

So...I've bred an F(f4) generation. The majority are all pretty similiar but one might just be extra special, or carrying a trait I'd like to see in more of the population. I'd rerun the previous F(f3) gen and cross back to it, creating another f4 generation. More of this population will select for that trait, to lock it in, I might need to repeat a back cross. 

13 minutes ago, oros da boss said:

Does it help to eliminate some time and another roll of the dice, when you reverse the females? Speed up the process and reduce some of the guesswork.

I reverse females to create new S1 feminised hybrids. Purely to grow and enjoy.

None of the feminised genetics makes it's way into the line breeding though.

[oros da boss]

Thanks for explaining it. Can it get tricky to keep track of everything? I imagine you have to be organised, keep records and label all the plants. Are there any formulas you can use to predict the odds of a successful outcome? 

 

[Totemic]

I dont think its tricky really as everything moves at natures slow and steady pace. I also do a lot of forward planning and block off entire periods in my calendar to do dedicated breeding runs as opposed to a sensimilla grow. In fact I never have a sensi grow as I'm always busy with some cross or another. Its tricky in that I can only be working with one type of pollen over a 6 week period so i dont risk cross contamination.

There are no formulas for predicting. I have gotten to know my plants though and what they particularly could add or take away from the offspring. Only way to know is to judge the parents by the offspring they produce.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Totemic

[oros da boss]

36 minutes ago, Totemic said:

as everything moves at natures slow and steady pace.

go with the flow, man.

38 minutes ago, Totemic said:

Only way to know is to judge the parents by the offspring they produce.

Its obvious, but this is worth repeating.

Can you share your reason why you don't use any feminised genetics in this project? 

[Totemic]

For the sake of diversity. Fems are, if you will, finished products. Bred to produce a narrow but stable genetic pool.

If I were to introduce feminized genetics into the regular filial generation, I'm really creating another hybrid, since the fem genetics is already a hybrid. 

Breeding regular genetics has a goal of achieving a balance of stability and diversity.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Totemic
Added stuff

[oros da boss]

29 minutes ago, Totemic said:

For the sake of diversity. Fems are, if you will, finished products. Bred to produce a narrow but stable genetic pool.

Is this refered to as bottle necking? Is it a stable hybrid because there is no male chromosones involved?

3 hours ago, Totemic said:

Its tricky in that I can only be working with one type of pollen over a 6 week period so i dont risk cross contamination.

I would struggle to keep up the strict procedures. Do you store the pollen in the freezer?