Emergency, advice needed

[TheUltimateNoob]

 

Greetings Fam, hope you guys can help me.

 

I can't quite figure this one out... I was thinking K or P excess? Not too sure though. I doubt it's a deficiency because I fed at 800ppm on the 27th - which is whats confusing me.

 

I started the flower ratio with GH Tripack just before first week of 12/12 and that week is just about over.

 

I shifted my pH range from 6.2-6.7 to 5.5-6.1 after receiving a suggestion from@PsyCLown if I'm not mistaken due to my medium being primarily Coco (Freedom Farms Formula 1).

 

After doing some searching and going back into my nutrient logs, I feel like it's a Mn (Manganese) deficiency due to incorrect pH (ph was too high at just above 6) and they were fed on the 24th not long after lights on and halfway through the light cycle in the early hours of the 27th... The 2 feedings before that were at a slightly lower pH but they still weren't low enough to compensate. I haven't went below 5.6 for about 2 weeks.

 

The yellow is coming in from the inside out, with the newer growth being the worst off. Made me think maybe N deficiency but it doesn't look typical and a N deficiency at this ppm level is unlikely, although not impossible.

 

The Inzane bounced back well, but the Black Fire is just looking sad. Yet they receive the same treatment.

Maybe the Black Fire is so sad because she hasn't bounced back from the lollipop and the pH issue is making it worse, but I'm really lost.

 

I want to give them a feed tomorrow with Flora Micro only added to about 300ppm at pH 5.3 (it was supposed to be water only but I want to boost Mn uptake).

 

I'll pH my 4 feedings at 5.3; 5.6; 5.9 & 6.2 respectively afterwards, followed by water at pH 5.3 for the plain watering and then repeat the cycle. I'll try to get those numbers as close as I can to try to balance everything out.

 

I added some supporting evidence as to how I got to my conclusion as well as a few shots of the trees. If anyone could let me know if I'm on the right track with fixing the issue, I'd really appreciate it, also any advice pertaining to this specifically from experienced growers would help a lot. This has me stumped.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Apologies if the images are bad quality, had to use Tapatalk to upload them.

 

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[Ill_Evan]

I can't comment on the solution, coco is out of my realm but those plants do definitely look Manganese deficient. The droopiness might not be related though, just to keep in mind. Might even be a lockout if you're experiencing deficiencies close to feeding. If I were experiencing this I'd probably opt for a flush and a fresh low dose feed and work my way up in ppm. I'd also just stick to ph of 5.8 when experiencing a problem rather than making fluctuations while the plant is unhappy. 

Just my  but I'm sure a coco guru will give a better definitive answer. 

[CreX]

I dono man... 

Iv been where you are... Meticulous calculations and decimal point readings... 

And it got all too much at one stage... 

Anyways, my point is... Maybe you are being a bit too motherly at the moment. 

Soil and coco meduim tend to self stabilize pH to an extent... So I'm not sure if your different levels of pH are throwing things off... PH changes should be fairly gradual... But consistent... I would maybe change your pH regime to use less pH down fluid by mixing your nutes before adjusting pH, and then stick to a pH for the week... Say 6.1 or 6.2 or 6.3 even as you mentioned the plants are in early flower now and are gonna need the slightly higher pH to account for the drop in pH in early bloom. 

And then the next week you go down a bit to say 5.8-6.0 and hover there for the remainder of the grow. 

Are you feeding the plants at every feeding? So 4 times a week? I think that's a bit much too, which could be the cause of the one lady looking a bit unhappy. 

I think you need to take a runoff reading to see where the pH actually is... And how high the runoff ppm is... 

Im even tempted to suggest p

Fok!! En het nou my eirs verbrand lol

I'm even tempted to suggest a flush of that plant with copious amounts of phed water and then resume normal feeding. 

What you are experiencing is quite a complex problem, where it would seem like a deficiency but is more likely a toxicity due to excess phosphorus in the meduim. 

Nitrogen deficiency is the yellowing of the mature leaves first from the bottom of the plant - generally new growth is normal still... And a nitrogen tox makes dark green leaves with curled tips. 

Not quite what you have... You are quite right in saying you have just recently fed her so no deficiency should be present... So adding more nutes now will be to her further detriment.... 

So toxicity is on the table... But which one??? There are so many symptoms displayed so which can it possibly be?? 

Iron deficiency... Zinc...... Those are the most prominent that I see... But like you said... You just fed them so you know the nutes are there.... 

So now we look at lock outs due to excess nutes... And the most common culprit is the sulphor and phosphorus which lock out other nutrients at root level... 

So actually I think a flush is in order... 

But let's get some 2nd opinions before anything rash

[PsyCLown]

To me 5.5 seems quite low in terms of PH... I personally aim for 5.9 to 6.3 and currently am also using GHE and coco and have been following their feeding chart for the most part. No issues at all, I also run blumat's for automatic feed and do not do a flush, I know its recommended... but so far no issues.

EC for flower has been around 1.7 on average with their recommended doses and my plants have been fine...

 

With coco you do not need to constantly feed at a low PH to bring the PH down, just simply reduce the PH to the level you want and continue feeding at that PH. The PH fluctuations are probably not helping either.

So let's say you were feeding at a PH of 7.0 and you want to lower it to 6.2, no need to drop the feed to a PH of 5.5 just drop to 6.2 and continue with that. On average I typically end up with a PH of 6.1 to 6.3 if you want a tighter range.

I take a bit of a lazy approach with PH as well in the sense that when I add PH up / down, as long as I end up within my 5.9 to 6.3 range I do not worry much about it.

 

If it were me experiencing that issue, I'd take the plant and put it in my bathtub and put around 5 or 6L of feed through it and have the feed PH'd to 6.2

If you really want, you can go a little higher on the micro and a bit lower on the grow. I'd then monitor it from there and give it a chance to recover.

[PsyCLown]

I forgot to mention, may not be a bad idea to drop the strength of the feed ever so slightly, perhaps to around an EC of 1.4

I'd say keep the ratio's the same though.

[Prom]

What enzymes are you adding for the coco?

 

And as I am really a total noob on coco.. do coco and hydro use the same ph table?

[PsyCLown]

18 minutes ago, Prom said:

What enzymes are you adding for the coco?

 

And as I am really a total noob on coco.. do coco and hydro use the same ph table?

Yeah, coco and hydro are the same in that sense.

The coco is simply a medium in which the water / nute mixture is held. Coco does not contain any nutrients at all, unlike with soil.

 

@TheUltimateNoob so @CreX and I were talking and you're using Freedom Farms Formula 1, which isn't pure coco / perlite. It contains some amendments, if you're feeding according to the coco / hydro guide on the bottle this may be causing issues as the amendments are also providing nutes.

 

Ingredients: Coco Coir, Worm Castings, Perlite (30%), Volcanic Rock Dust, Bone meal, Gypsum, Fermented probiotic bran.

That is the Formula 1 mix. So I'd certainly lower the nutes you're giving, perhaps even follow the soil chart for the GHE nutes instead - I have not looked at what those dosages are like though.

[Prom]

And when I look at your feeding amount, can't it be that the amount of Phosphor you add, lock out the iron? Your very bright yellow center looks direction iron deficiency.. 

[Bakstein420]

I'm probably wrong but it looks like sulphur deficiency to me. All yellowing is on new growth and starts at the base of the leaf working it's way to the tips.

N deficiency would target your lower leaves.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Bakstein420

[TheUltimateNoob]

I can't comment on the solution, coco is out of my realm but those plants do definitely look Manganese deficient. The droopiness might not be related though, just to keep in mind. Might even be a lockout if you're experiencing deficiencies close to feeding. If I were experiencing this I'd probably opt for a flush and a fresh low dose feed and work my way up in ppm. I'd also just stick to ph of 5.8 when experiencing a problem rather than making fluctuations while the plant is unhappy. 
Just my  but I'm sure a coco guru will give a better definitive answer. 

Thanks bro. I'm also leaning towards Mn deficiency... The pH wouldn't have allowed for uptake efficiently.

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[TheUltimateNoob]

Yeah, coco and hydro are the same in that sense.
The coco is simply a medium in which the water / nute mixture is held. Coco does not contain any nutrients at all, unlike with soil.
 
@TheUltimateNoob so @CreX and I were talking and you're using Freedom Farms Formula 1, which isn't pure coco / perlite. It contains some amendments, if you're feeding according to the coco / hydro guide on the bottle this may be causing issues as the amendments are also providing nutes.
 
Ingredients: Coco Coir, Worm Castings, Perlite (30%), Volcanic Rock Dust, Bone meal, Gypsum, Fermented probiotic bran.
That is the Formula 1 mix. So I'd certainly lower the nutes you're giving, perhaps even follow the soil chart for the GHE nutes instead - I have not looked at what those dosages are like though.

Yeah bro I used to feed according to this soil pH absorption chart I've attached for a while (because the medium is pH balanced at 6.5) before I got the suggestion to follow Hydro pH levels.

I didn't have any issues before, even at high ppms - I've hit 1000 by accident for a week once - I think changing the pH kinda f*d me over just a little bit, but this looks more like a lockout issue now after reading through everything... The feedings have been around pH 6 for over a week... This may have given the opportunity for P to lockout Mn according to the hydro pH chart... Wouldn't make sense with the soil chart unless the P just caused a lockout due to toxicity.

They're due for a drink tomorrow so I think I'll flush with 5L of pH'd water each, measure runoff pH and ppms, then flush again if necessary and give them a low dose of Micro... (was supposed to be water only)


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[TheUltimateNoob]

I can't comment on the solution, coco is out of my realm but those plants do definitely look Manganese deficient. The droopiness might not be related though, just to keep in mind. Might even be a lockout if you're experiencing deficiencies close to feeding. If I were experiencing this I'd probably opt for a flush and a fresh low dose feed and work my way up in ppm. I'd also just stick to ph of 5.8 when experiencing a problem rather than making fluctuations while the plant is unhappy. 
Just my  but I'm sure a coco guru will give a better definitive answer. 

Yeah my suspicion is that the yellowing is my issue here, and the droopy leaves is just her having not recovered from the abuse yet... The lockout is just making it look worse

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[oros da boss]

What are the variables in your environment? Do you use a heater when the lights are off? We just had our first really cold snap and your issues could be related to root temperature. 

[TheUltimateNoob]

What are the variables in your environment? Do you use a heater when the lights are off? We just had our first really cold snap and your issues could be related to root temperature. 

No I don't use one... I don't think I see anything less than 15°C air temp inside the tent, max gets to around 28 with humidity between 50-70%... Not sure about the roots, will have to stick a thermometer in the soil for a while

 

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[oros da boss]

Morning!

15 c is too low. Do you have a reliable thermometer?

 

[TheUltimateNoob]

What are the variables in your environment? Do you use a heater when the lights are off? We just had our first really cold snap and your issues could be related to root temperature. 

Lights are off right now... I run the dark cycle during the day to keep temps a bit stable.

 

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[TheUltimateNoob]

Morning!

15 c is too low. Do you have a reliable thermometer?

 

Morning!... Sorry I was mistaken... With my dark cycles during the day, my temps rarely go below 20C.

 

15C was air temp on my external thermometer measuring the air in the garage.

 

With lights on, the temps in the tent are around 24-28C.

 

Measurements are across 2 digital thermometers, I've checked them against like 5 or 8 other digital ones I have (the little ones with hygrometers for jars)

Some of them vary by about 1-2C. They're decently accurate.

 

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[oros da boss]

If the lowest air temp is 20 c then the roots will be a couple of degrees lower than the air. That is on the borderline for lockout issues. I have had similar looking woes, in the past and was able to overcome them with an oil radiator connected to a timer.

I would monitor the temp on the floor of your tent. Add a heater if needed. Your nutes and coco mix are top quality premium brands, so I don't think that is your problem. 

[Ill_Evan]

2 hours ago, TheUltimateNoob said:

No I don't use one... I don't think I see anything less than 15°C air temp inside the tent, max gets to around 28 with humidity between 50-70%... Not sure about the roots, will have to stick a thermometer in the soil for a while

I wouldn't blame the cold too much in this regard. If 15C is your low end then I rate you're ok. I am currently getting as low as 13C and going ok 

Although temp fluctuation between day and night could be a problem if not in flower, but even then I've never seen problem unless you get below 10C. Them weeds is resilient. 

[CreX]

Cool, with your phed water, first water so that the whole meduim is wet, but no runnoff. 

Let it sit for a few min for the water you added to stabilize in the meduim. 

Then flush until you have enough runoff to test the runnoff pH and ppm. 

Then depending on those results you can see if this is just a plain water feed, or if you need to complete the flush. 

But from what we can see, the completion of the flush is necessary. 

The test is just for your info

[GGG]

Hi guys, I have used F1 a couple of time and mainly with Green House Powder feeding and done RDWC with GHE also, for me these two nutrient line are simular, when I did run into problems with F1 it was mostly because I didn't bump the tap water to 0,2-3 EC with Calsium Nitrate from Horti mix, when I had a def/tox problem due to not bumping I flushed with 1EC (mostly problem was in flower) and PH 5,7, like said above I'll put in 1-2 liters and wait so all the coco in the pot gets wet to dissolve any concentrated nutes and then flush again with 3liters, then il flush again the next day and then skip a day and then again. Mostly I didn't know what was wrong but that fixed the problem, after that I can feed 1,8-2 EC from the week 4 and il even go to 2,5 but the main thing was at that high EC is to keep medium moist, any drying out will solidify the nutes and the the pH in medium gets to high ( hope my words make sense).
When's that fixed the problem il play with PH between 5,7-5,9.
Also I first mix nutes properly in bucket then check and adjust PH then wait and check PH again after 30, I check ph again before next feeding because it tends to differ the next time abit due to temps variables in the grow space, I keep my bucket in grow space, to cold outside tent and don't think plants like the cold water when the medium is grow temps.
Hope my experience helps a bit, so we learn together.

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[oros da boss]

@GGG they don't enjoy having cold, soggy feet. Raising the temp of the water is a very good suggestion.  

[GGG]

And as suggested in the thread, if your floor is cold then raise them abit

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[TheUltimateNoob]

Thanks everyone! You guys are awesome.
The lights are due to come on in just over 3 hours so I'll wait for then, then get the flushing... Lol.

I'll try raising the pots a slight bit off the floor to see if it makes a difference, and I'll test the runoff later as well.

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[oros da boss]

10 hours ago, Ill_Evan said:

I wouldn't blame the cold too much in this regard. If 15C is your low end then I rate you're ok. I am currently getting as low as 13C and going ok 

 

How's It and good evening, 

you have certainly got a lot more knowledge and understanding about caring for your girls and don't make basic errors like putting plants on a cold floor and over watering.

I just saw that picture of the poor droopy girl and offered my experience, because the environment is the most obvious thing to question first. Get the roots happy, don't drown them and most of these problems  and lock outs will cure themselves.

https://www.royalqueenseeds.com/blog-healthy-roots-for-healthy-cannabis-plants-n343

Cold temperatures can also shock plants causing wilting and slowed growth.

Maintaining comfortable 22°C in the root zone will make your plants grow with no undesired side effects of temperature fluctuations.

https://www.cannabisculture.com/content/2002/08/02/2565/When the air temperature remains at 72 degrees and the root zone is cool, which often happens when containers are placed on a cold floor, the roots do not work as efficiently as they do at a higher temperature.

Conversely, cool air temperatures can be ameliorated using warm RZT.

https://hightimes.com/grow/nicos-nuggets-temperature-plants/

Root zone temperatures are equally important as chemical reactions happen at a faster rate in optimal temperatures. These reactions are the mineral uptake from the nutrients we give plants for use in photosynthesis. The better and faster these reactions occur, the quicker and more abundant food the plant will have. The ideal root zone temp for cannabis plants is around 75°F and should always be about 5 degrees cooler than the ambient temperature.

https://www.maximumyield.com/is-root-zone-heating-really-necessary-part-one-the-basics/2/922

They go from being flooded after watering to dry between waterings and from cold at night to warm in the day—the living soil is constantly trying to adapt to this ever-changing environment and so the plant roots do not function as efficiently as they could.

 

If root zone environments are maintained consistently in the comfort zone, however, plants actually become more photosynthetically efficient—using all the energy they produce to focus on efficient growth and reproduction. As the plants use energy more efficiently, they begin to process nutrients better and they use light and water more efficiently as well, with less 'stretching.' In short, the plants can now utilize resources at the level of their needs, not in excess to overcompensate for stress.