Synthetic nutrients

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

What's the story around using synthetic nutes in a living soil? All information welcome. 

Motivation for my question is that they use these "synthetic nutes" in big scale irrigation systems on farms. I currently work on a fynbos farm, but have done my share on cash crop and fruit farms and they all do it. It obviously goes directly into the earth and the plants still gets fed. 

My current boss is a multiple masters degree holder in all things agricultural science at the age of 59 and also the owner of Inteligro. They manufacture and distribute their own nutes and distribute brands like Haifa and such, all specializing in water soluble synthetic plant nutrients and all kinds of other crazy shit. We have a consultant that visits our farm once every 3/4 months and gives us the run down of what to do and feed the plants with, this consultant is twice as smart as my boss. I often listen to their discussions, but only understand about half of what they say. I only apply the stuff, but that allows me to know what it is and it's all the exact same stuff you would use in a normal hydroponic setup, just at different ratios. 

I know people say to stay away from synthetic nutes when growing in a living soil, but I'm sure it's very much the same as putting synthetic or "hydroponic" nutes on your plants that are growing outside in mother earth. You just have to apply it right.

We have an old school irrigation system on the farm, no pumps, all natural. So where we irrigate from we tap into the irrigation system through a manifold then attach a big metal bucket that gets pumped full of pressure and we throw all the synthetics in there and pump it into the irrigation system. Like I've mentioned, we've done this for everything from lettuce to guava trees to fucking king proteas. Consumables, ornamentals, the whole show. Recently finished a permaculture internship on an all organic farm, toughest but best time of my life.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Naughty.Psychonaut

[Batista]

I have always used some sort of chemical salt fertilizer on my outside plants and on my inside coco and hydro setups.I have tried organic but the inherent issue when faced with organics is that you dont know when the ferts will break down and be available and also the different elements that make up N P K values wash out at different rates, so how do you effectively top-up and control this ?

I have to say that I have grown "organically only" speaking, and the flavoru and smell was much better than with chemical only grows.This makes sense because I added a variety of organics that eventually when broken down contribute to the terp profile of the plant in some way.Im no expert so that may be way off

I stick to chemical nutes because of simplicity sakes,you measure your water ,throw in nutes, stick in a EC/TDS meter, adjust ph, then you are done.Different plants have different nutrient requirements and I find you can really push a plants limit and sometimes you have to because inside grows are costly and you may be chasing an effective g/watt.

At the end of the day, you either feed the plant nutrients directly (Synthetic) or you feed the microbes in the living soil that break down and then makes nutrients available to your plant(Organic).

The downside of combining the two methods is that your chemicals could alter/kill microbes in the living soil.I have done experiments many times when switching out an organic plant for nutes and the plant gets stunted for about 2 weeks before resuming growth.I guess its up to the type of synthetic fert you use and its manufacturing process that determines how it affects soil microbes.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

I agree, it definitly depends on how and with what the nutes are made. In terms of using nitrates and sulphates I guess the molecular structure is "organic enough" to allow use at certain amounts, where as with organic nutes you can just give the stuff. Synthetic nutes can become "too much" for the plant very quikly.

The other big difference is the obvious, roots in earth will move a lot further and free where as potted plants are limited, which is the biggest contributing factor in the synthetic nute becomming "too much".

According to practical studies done by boss man, using synthetic nutes in an inert medium (coco) just increases the risk of nutrient build up. In living organic mediums with a healthy symbiote you actually have microbes breaking down those synthetic nutes aswell so you don't have to rely as much on flushing as with inert mediums, although it's still recommended. Which if you think about it makes perfect sense. Anyone who can shed some light on this? I'll probably still do my own practical research, just trying to find external views.

So in conclusion anyone who has ever told me to stay away from synthetic nutes just cause I'm growing in living soil was just being a bit full of themselves? My "research" isn't final and I am not setting my mind on anything, but choosing who to believe is becoming an issue, because some people are real hard up about what their egos make them believe and they'll try to force it on others even though they themselves don't really know and on the other side you have people with masters degrees telling you different. Kinda a no brainer, but giving the benefit of the doubt to the self proclaimed masters and giving their opinions a fighting chance.

With that being said I am fully aware that you still face nute build up and root damage when growing in living soil with synth nutes, but it's actually more so with coco. Which is what we use synth nutes for. I am also fully aware that organic nutes compliment living soils much better and keeps the symbiote healthy, but using your synthetic nutes the right way won't do any harm, with extra emphasis on "USING YOUR NUTES THE RIGHT WAY".

Here'a where things get a bit more complicated, although not really complicated at all. Going off looking, smelling and knowing what's in the soil, how do you know how "alive" it is and if so how "healthy" it is and how much synthetics it will take to cause harm. Some conditions will be able to tolorate more than others. How to simplify? Apply microbial and enzyme rich ammendments in the medium, introduce life and keep it healthy and alive. You can push the microbes till you see mycelium colonising on the soil. This brings life to the party and your synth nutes won't be a problem (obviously you still won't be able to apply it however you like, just stick to the recommendations that come with the product)

[Batista]

For me, because im not a soil expert and I dont have the time and space to do soil tea etc, i thought I rather FULL ASS synthetic nutes then HALF ASS organic nutes lol

I made peace with the fact that my synthetic plants need a flush once every 2 weeks aswell to flush out extra nutes.You can see nute salts easily on top of the coco.

As for your last paragraph, I cant answer that.They was a guy on here that had immense knowledge of soil microbes,cant remember his name.

If someone told you to stay away from doing this - its the safest answer.Its not correct and there are many factors influencing this but its a safe answer.

 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

Yeah hahah I'm not an expert in anything, infact this thread goes to show just how clueless I am. Trying to find the right answers, though. I'm talking to some people, but trying to find the right people to have the right kinda convo with. I believe some synthetics might have reactions with eachother and even so with some of the organic matter and this might be a problem in some cases. 

I don't see any problem doing full ass, would you say that using synthetic nutes in soil is going half ass? I guess that is another big part of the question, using synthetics in soil, do the plants still get fed? 

I just can't think why it would be acceptable for big production farms to do it, but for us in pots with a plant for 3/4 months it's frowned upon. 

At the end of the day I am the FULL ASS organic kinda guy hahahah!