Phenotypical expressions

[SkunkPharm]

Howzit guys and girls.

Everything these days seems to be about phenotypes. Do you think it is possible for a breeder to state which phenotypes to expect when they are selling you seeds? Or will it be to diverse to state this on a pack?

Also do you think it is possible for then to list what phenotype is the desired one and how to identify it early on or is this to much to ask?

Do you have thoughts on this? Leave your comment here.

[Dank]

Hi @SkunkPharm , in my view it is possible to a degree for indoor setups, providing enviromental controls are practically indentical to what the breeder/their growers use.

A phenotype of a particilar seed is the way that those genetics are expressing themselves in a certain environment. 

I have grown the same clones in the same spot with different soils and phenotypical expression can vary with just a single variable changed.

Then different seeds also have genetic variation, finding the exact phenotypes as the mom from seed is possible, but a difficult thing to "promise".

Edited June 27, 2020 by Dank

[Dank]

I should add that it also greatly depends on the particular strain, has it been selectively bred for certain traits for generations, or is it just a f1 hybrid on another f1 hybrid.

Strains from the poly hybrid soup will give way more variation in my experience. 

[Totemic]

From my experience with line breeding, my observations have been that a true F1 hybrid(both P1 and P2, are vastly different genetically and past F3 in their own line), these plants display a very uniform phenotypical expression. From a breeding point of view there is no point going through a selection phase from such a true F1 generation. Any male and any female will do to get to the F2.

F2 Generations where there is a recombination splits the line into two distinct or polarized phenotypical groups. The one group leaning toward the P1, and another from P2. Somewhere in the middle is the hybrid expression from F1.

Working down the F line each generation you thin out and reduce the variation. From F4 you can start to consider the phenotypical expressions to somewhat stabilise to about 5 phenos.

Fems it's very subjective, and as @Danksaid, is it just an F1 on top of an F1. Well then that's not an F1, or S1. It's an F2(S2) I.e. all the variation youd expect from an F2 generation.

True S1 hybrid Fems, display only 2 phenotypes.

Man it goes a lot more but I'm rambling now. Hope it helps.

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Totemic

[SkunkPharm]

Is it true that in stable lines you can only see if a plants is female or male when switched to 12 12?

[oldsandals]

Totemic mostly covered it. You should read up on some literature on selective breeding, it can be a learning curve, but interesting https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2016.00210/full

[CreX]

27 minutes ago, SkunkPharm said:

Is it true that in stable lines you can only see if a plants is female or male when switched to 12 12?

This could just be a pheno expression on its own. 

we only look for more favorable phenos, strong stems, big buds, frosty, thin or fat leaves, long petiole, pest resistant.... They are all expressions and there are likely hundreds or thousands of minute differences that we don't notice. 

So it would be nice if the breeders gave a direction to look in... But it would just be a rough guideline and no promises can be made

Also, it would make selling seeds harder because people would only buy seeds that can produce the best of the best... And so strains that aren't visually appealing to grow or grow weird will be completely avoided - even though the smoke report would melt your face. 

But in saying that... Most breeders do have an info line somewhere, either Facebook or Instagram or a website that you could ask those questions 

"what do you recommend I look out for" 

[Totemic]

41 minutes ago, SkunkPharm said:

Is it true that in stable lines you can only see if a plants is female or male when switched to 12 12?

Well no and yes. That's just the genetics. The dominant gene for this is as you state, but their is a recessive state gene where the plants have no problem pushing pistils from young in veg, as soon as sexual maturity has been reached, while males always carry the dominant gene and trigger on the light cycle only.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Totemic

[SkunkPharm]

Look all I want them to say is this is a stabilized strain the dominant phenotypes are floral flavors with hints of diesel and the super.stinky cheese. But now they call something cheese and it smells like Green Crack.

I can see why people are moving away from names and are rather classifying things to how the make you feel.

 

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[Totemic]

Biggest problem is smell is subjective. An hallucination at best.

And then those feelings are subjective too. The same weed isnt going to have the same effect on me and you. Tolerance, other contra indicating medications we may be on etc.

What is great about the human cannabis relationship is that it's as unique as each plant and individual is. Pure magic.

But I get your point that you want a description, and the plant you grow out needs to meet that description. Tough one in a world where seed production practices are as varied in as many ways as there are breeders.

[greenkush]

7 minutes ago, Totemic said:

Biggest problem is smell is subjective. An hallucination at best.

My one cross is literally the only one I've ever smelled that had grape scent, all these other things with grape had the scent of freshly tainted ass. I hate the smell of weed in general.