Coco - organic or synthetic nutrients

[Burly]

Hi guys. 
 

Hope your all well and staying warm. 
I was hoping someone could help with what may seem a simple question is actually probably an in depth topic about soil, coco and then organic or synthetic? Many opinions out there and very valid ones from like professors in soil biology and master growers. A lot of learning down this road. 
 

I’ve never used or grown in soil, for some reason the topic or understanding the bio life behind soil seems challenging, even choosing the correct soil or from who do you soil, just a few minutes of reading through soil and specialists topics on good soil and organic teas! It all sounds fantastic and I’m so for the organic way but I’m just not lus to learn it, it seems so much more complicated than my GHE nutrients and my coco perlite holstered with my PH and E.C. pen! Yes there are down side to both grow mediums and positives.  Dunno, am I missing out on something for a kak reason like I’m not lus!

 So I thought I’d go against my lazy self and start small, the idea and looking into this has already existed me, I look forward to learning and growing as a grower. And this is where I need to ask your guys help and options if you think this a good simple start for my first go at organic nutrients. I’ve heard and been told guys get great results with the following buuuut I’m sure there is more to it.  I’ll start with changing nutrients first and work to soil after a grow with organic nutrients I thought? Not that I’m aiming to be doing teas and putting my own soil mix together. Hectic! Anyway this is it, this is what I have......

freedom farm Formula One  only afternoon about 3weeks in veg (from seed, transplanted into freedom farm formula one after germination About 3 weeks after popping) there after 

Biobizz bio grow - high in veg Low in flowering 

Biobizz bio bloom high in flowering low in veg work the two nutrients chance according to growth stage.

so if someone out there is just brain farting on the couch like me and reading this, and has the energy to reply dude. If there is anything I can tell you, please do ask, I’ll try give you what ever info you may need to better point out the way I should be going?   
Cheers guys! 

Stay blessed! 
 

[PsyCLown]

Isn't formula 1 coco with some amendments?
Not quite the same as their classic soil which is a bit closer to a living soil with microbes and such? I could be wrong though.

Curious as to what difference you'll notice, if any.

I personally would rather stick with coco, synthetic nutes and add things such as microbe inoculations (gotta ensure there is something in your medium for the microbes to breakdown though), mycorrhizal fungi, teas etc.

With coco being an inert medium, I believe the microbes won't care much for it, I have no way of proving this though. If one were to reuse coco from a grow, there'd be roots left in the coco still and I'd imagine that to suffice and not be a bad thing.

Sent from my Redmi Note 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Burly]

Thanks PsyClown 

your 100% correct about the soil or rather coco perlite it’s the green bag. Your direction and approach make sense to me, staying with my GHE and just using their classic mix would be fine for now until I’ve done enough studying up on soil and maybe just do one plant in a separate grow and play with soils and nutrients. 
 

so I’m doing 5 plants currently, Humboldt auto Bubba Kush. 
So recon the freedom farm green bag premium classic would get me by for about two weeks into veg and then I would start adding my GHE line. Could you maybe give me the names of the added microbe and mycorrhizal fungi, teas would I add these with my GHE mix of course not the tea I would imagine that would be on watering days without GHE. 
thanks for the reply dude. Nice one. 
 

To be honest the main difference I wanted to see was in the labour and amount of water I need to do in coco, I love coco but it’s just tough if work and time ain’t always in your side. That and I like the idea of organic..... to a degree. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Burly
Added reasons

[Burly]

I was using Atami but 300 a bag I also ha e to look at the spend, so changing coco supplier to a local one is of course great that I it’s self might bring a change to my watering I dunno Atami is great coco been using that for the last year with only the 3 part GHE and calmag with molasses. I haven’t seen any issues but then again I’ve never add to that formula to notice a difference in the plants and labour. Your recipe or guide on what I could change up would be great. Mixing my nutrients is a process of watching my strains a starting low and working up from there 

[GGG]

Hi and welcome
FF Classic and FF F1 both need to be fed nutrients, but Classic can go a few weeks for veg as you said. Tbh from the readings I have done it seems that microbes doesn't do well or die off when using synthetic nutes and espesially when in flower and EC running high, but also read that if you keep EC just at about 1 it can be done, I'm also new to living organic soils. We here to learn from each other

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

[PsyCLown]

23 hours ago, GGG said:

Hi and welcome
FF Classic and FF F1 both need to be fed nutrients, but Classic can go a few weeks for veg as you said. Tbh from the readings I have done it seems that microbes doesn't do well or die off when using synthetic nutes and espesially when in flower and EC running high, but also read that if you keep EC just at about 1 it can be done, I'm also new to living organic soils. We here to learn from each other

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk
 

My thing is, I wish there were a way for me / us to easily test this ourselves though.

We're simply going based on what others have said.

 

I am not saying its wrong or not possible, just wish we could verify this ourselves. I imagine one would need to send some medium off to a lab to be tested. Not too sure.

[Newbie_2020]

Im going to ask a stupid question, I just cant get the full understanding of the EC readings. Im currently growing my seedling in Formula 1. Have not added nutrients as yet but will need to soon. When i test my water currently the PH is around 8.5 which is easy manageable to get lower to the 6-6.5 range. My questions is when i measure my EC levels the reading is 189 us/cm and the ppm around 95ppm.  So on the Hydroponics website they say the below is ideal levels. Not sure if this accurate, but they say if you multiply your ppm reading by 2 /1000 you will get your EC, this gives me EC of 0.189. Do I calculate this correct. If this is correct how do i get the reading to 1 how do i lift it from 0.189. 

 

 

Cannabis Indica	6.0-6.5 Soil – 5.8 Hydro/Coco	2.4-2.8	1680-1960
Cannabis Sativa	6.0-6.5 Soil – 5.8 Hydro/Coco	1.0-1.5	700-1050

[GGG]

This might help, you don't have to be on point, 10% difference won't make a difference

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

[Newbie_2020]

So with all this great feedback received from the forum I thought lets see if I ask the supplier what will be their recommendation . So not sure if Im allowed to share but below is the feedback that I have received on when using Freedom Farms Formula 1 craft soil what nutrients are recommended

 

Feedback Received: 

Formula 1 specifically; The ideal fertilizer for this soil is water soluble inorganic mineral nutrients.

 

First choice: FF Polyfeed and Calmag in a 2:1 ratio (this is unlabeled nutrients mixed and bottled by us)

2ml/L Polyfeed with 1ml/L Calmag adds up to an EC of 1.2 mS

 

Other option: GHE flora coco - Grow(4-0-3) and Bloom (1-2-3). For VEG mix 1:1 to a total EC of 1.2 mS (approx. 600ppm). They have to be added together to have a full spectrum of essential elements. The Grow does not contain P. In flowering you can add more or just Bloom. Keep your input EC at 1.2 mS. A single feed per week is is more than enough nutrients, for some strains it might even be to much.

 

Furthermore - You can use any nutrients that are used for hydroponic growing. Just make sure you have the full spectrum of nutrients. Hydroponic nutrients will always be a 2 (or 3) part combination that needs to be mixed together. Apply at an EC  rate of 1.2 mS once per week.

 

The soluble inorganic nutrients described above is essential for Formula 1. However, if you want to add organic nutrients you can. Just bring down the strength of the inorganic inputs.

[TheUltimateNoob]

Okay wait... I need a fresh start here.
What is the actual question? Or issue.

I grow in Freedom Farms Formula 1 with the GHE Flora tripack. I could possibly give some advice.

Also,@Newbie_2020, any particular reason you're stressing about EC?

Sorry gents, I read the whole thread, there's just too many figures and I got lost, lol. Just wanted to find out what we trying to solve here.

Sent from my POCOPHONE F1 using Tapatalk

[Ill_Evan]

51 minutes ago, TheUltimateNoob said:

What is the actual question? Or issue.

Think the dude just wants confirmation and confidence on a nutrient feed for his medium, the FF Formula 1 to be specific. 

@Burly I'd forget anything to do with ppm and just stick with EC. Did you know there are two different conversions for ppm and they are dependent on country? EC is just way more universal and prevents any miscommunications. 

1 hour ago, Newbie_2020 said:

First choice: FF Polyfeed and Calmag in a 2:1 ratio (this is unlabeled nutrients mixed and bottled by us)

2ml/L Polyfeed with 1ml/L Calmag adds up to an EC of 1.2 mS

They'll obviously push their own products on you first, so just keep that in mind. 

1 hour ago, Newbie_2020 said:

Other option: GHE flora coco - Grow(4-0-3) and Bloom (1-2-3).

Good that they do provide an alternative for you, although you could also just use the normal GHE Trio and just add additional calmag to compensate. 

2 hours ago, Newbie_2020 said:

However, if you want to add organic nutrients you can. Just bring down the strength of the inorganic inputs.

Notice what they are saying here. They are saying that if you wanted to 'add' organic nutes you would need to lower the strength of the synthetic nutes. Is it reasonable to then say that they mean you can't just use organic nutes? I'd find that interesting. 

[TheUltimateNoob]

Think the dude just wants confirmation and confidence on a nutrient feed for his medium, the FF Formula 1 to be specific. 

@Burly I'd forget anything to do with ppm and just stick with EC. Did you know there are two different conversions for ppm and they are dependent on country? EC is just way more universal and prevents any miscommunications. 

They'll obviously push their own products on you first, so just keep that in mind. 

Good that they do provide an alternative for you, although you could also just use the normal GHE Trio and just add additional calmag to compensate. 

Notice what they are saying here. They are saying that if you wanted to 'add' organic nutes you would need to lower the strength of the synthetic nutes. Is it reasonable to then say that they mean you can't just use organic nutes? I'd find that interesting. 

@Ill_Evan 2 conversions for ppm?... Please share

Or are you referring to parts per million vs mg/m^3?

 

Also,@Burly , here's a feeding chart I started with back in the day before I started pushing the upper limits. 

 

 

[TheUltimateNoob]

Remember that chart is per gallon, or 3.79L

Sent from my POCOPHONE F1 using Tapatalk

[Ill_Evan]

@TheUltimateNoob

https://support.bluelab.com/hc/en-us/articles/205237090-what-are-the-different-conductivity-scales-what-do-they-mean-

[TheUltimateNoob]

@TheUltimateNoob

https://support.bluelab.com/hc/en-us/articles/205237090-what-are-the-different-conductivity-scales-what-do-they-mean-

Aaah yes... I remember now.

 

My mistake, just confused TDS and ppm... The last time I worked in a lab was a few years ago, we had dedicated equipment and knew what everything was for so the terminology took a back seat

 

Thank you for the information, it's much appreciated

Another bookmark for the growing folder

 

Sent from my POCOPHONE F1 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[Newbie_2020]

@TheUltimateNoob @Ill_Evan Morning Gents , 100% correct. For a newbie the information shared is a lot and somewhat confusing. So as you was mentioning for my current growth Im using the Formula 1 medium and just want to be 100% sure that the EC, type of nutrients etc.,... is correct for my medium. So my problem was is that I was not sure how the medium is classified. So is it Soil or Coco as the craft soil it was just so confusing as i did not feel comfortable or really understood what it is to know when i need to start feeding nutrients which mixing quantities to use. 

From the info received a lot of people to add nutrients but then one read that with coco you need nutrients etc,...... so with my limited knowledge I really wanted just to be sure for the growth Im doing that Im prepared and not going to stuff it up. So when i get to my second growth i could try something different etc,,,,,,,,,

So I have two options , option 1: The GHE Flora Kit. or Option 2 Hotimix Nutrients. So my thought was to go with the GHE Flora range the first time around and to use the COCO ratio as per the chart and see how it goes and just stick to the EC levels as specified and add some Calmag/Epson salts for my first growth. 

The good thing is that with all this info available even the info if read from @Totemic on mixing`s one`s own super soils the sky is the limit. My second try i would love to run two different mediums just to see what works better for me and if anything goes wrong is have the forum to come to the rescue. 

[Ill_Evan]

1 hour ago, Newbie_2020 said:

So my problem was is that I was not sure how the medium is classified. So is it Soil or Coco as the craft soil it was just so confusing as i did not feel comfortable or really understood what it is to know when i need to start feeding nutrients which mixing quantities to use. 

I had a similar thought when I bought my bags of FF Premium Classic. I had also at the time had a bag of Organic Matters Living Soil. The FF soils seem way more coco than.. well.. "soil". Even then though I am myself using the BioBizz range and so far so good. 

1 hour ago, Newbie_2020 said:

So I have two options , option 1: The GHE Flora Kit. or Option 2 Hotimix Nutrients. So my thought was to go with the GHE Flora range the first time around and to use the COCO ratio as per the chart and see how it goes and just stick to the EC levels as specified and add some Calmag/Epson salts for my first growth.

I rate as long as you watch your plants, don't over do it, stick to the feeding EC, you'll be good with whatever. 

[CreX]

Coco in itself is inert and doesn't have any nutes. 

So depending on your setup, you can easily use either or in coco. 

Salt based products like hortimix are very good, but so are the more organic options

[Newbie_2020]

@CreX @Ill_Evan Thanks for your input. I will start the first nutrients on Friday. Week 3 to be exact. So the girl is a bit droopy  currently so want to dry up the medium and be ready with a solution close to Friday. 

[TheUltimateNoob]

 

 

 

 

So is it Soil or Coco as the craft soil it was just so confusing as i did not feel comfortable or really understood what it is to know when i need to start feeding nutrients which mixing quantities to use.  From the info received a lot of people to add nutrients but then one read that with coco you need nutrients etc,...... so with my limited knowledge I really wanted just to be sure for the growth Im doing that Im prepared and not going to stuff it up. So when i get to my second growth i could try something different etc,,,,,,,,,

So I have two options , option 1: The GHE Flora Kit. or Option 2 Hotimix Nutrients. So my thought was to go with the GHE Flora range the first time around and to use the COCO ratio as per the chart and see how it goes and just stick to the EC levels as specified and add some Calmag/Epson salts for my first growth. 

 

 

 

I treat my Formula 1 basically soil because it has a lot of amendments you usually add to soil - I have had to do anything a particular way just because the medium is coco.

I water every 2nd or 3rd day and at a pH of 5.8-6.3. The medium buffers pH to 6.5 anyway so you're safe with feeding a slightly lower pH.

 

 

Sent from my POCOPHONE F1 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

[The_StonedTrooper]

7 hours ago, Ill_Evan said:

 The FF soils seem way more coco than.. well.. "soil". 

Here I was thinking I'm the only one

[Newbie_2020]

@TheUltimateNoob Which Nutrients do you use with FF ?  Im going to use the normal GHE Tri pack and maybe move over to something different. 

[The_StonedTrooper]

I think most that grow in soil or coco, are using biobizz or GHE.

just check which version you get or have, there is a hard water and soft water type of GHE

But that wont feed the microbes and is food directly for the plants roots,

Biobizz is for the living type of soil or conditions.

Edited July 13, 2020 by StickyD420

[TheUltimateNoob]

@TheUltimateNoob Which Nutrients do you use with FF ?  Im going to use the normal GHE Tri pack and maybe move over to something different. 

Been using the GHE tripack with their pH Up&Down since the beginning bro. For Ca&Mg I use Epsom salts if I absolutely need to, but usually I just increase the Flora Micro dose slightly.

Haven't found a reason to change to anything else yet and I'm trying to grow max potency with zero additives/supplements so it's really convenient for me.
And honestly, if you do it right, you WILL end up with potent shit... My last harvest was better than almost any indoor I've found elsewhere.

The Tripack, I feel, has the greatest value for money.
The ratio in which you use the concentrates ends up finishing one before the others, but they do sell them individually, so that's a plus.
I just buy a new pack and keep old nutes for like clones, other plants or experiments on feeding strengths.

The only other thing I'm considering looking into right now is living soil. The idea of a grow that requires just water is exciting due to its simplicity, although I'm not ready to make the switch yet neither do I have the time to compare veg times vs watering a medium w/nutrient solution.

Sent from my POCOPHONE F1 using Tapatalk

[Newbie_2020]

@TheUltimateNoob Good to know, hard or soft water GHE, sorry for all the questions.