Organic vs synthetics

[PsyCLown]

12 hours ago, Marzcanna said:

Coco with synthetic is boss, I grew like that for a couple of years, how often do you feed? There was days I was feeding 3/4 times a day 

The veg plants i water by hand every 2 to 3 days typically, depends on when it dries out. Sometime I leave them a bit longer as the coco still have quite a bit of moisture in it.

 

The flower plants are automatic watering system which is the Blumat carrots, so as the coco dries out they get more nutes. I never water until run off (not on purpose at least). I do not flush either.

[Ill_Evan]

@CreX @PsyCLown

[Ill_Evan]

1 minute ago, Marzcanna said:

Lets talk logic than, you seem like a smart person with alot of experience. I'm sure you have used fabric pots with synthetics, what happens to the pots after harvest? 

..they get washed?

[PsyCLown]

1 minute ago, Marzcanna said:

Lets talk logic than, you seem like a smart person with alot of experience. I'm sure you have used fabric pots with synthetics, what happens to the pots after harvest? 

Link to the flushing data which is being referred to: 

 

I like to wash my fabric pots between grows incase there are spores of mold or something, help keep things clean but I have simply reused them after a grow.

I assume you want to make reference to the nutrients which are sometime visible on the fabric pot from the nute solution getting on the fabric and then drying?

 

 

I personally do not like reusing my coco, however I know many do reuse theirs.

I did not like reusing my soil either, but ideally you should actually reuse soil as that is part of how one builds it up - continue adding to it.

 

Reusing coco and/or soil, if there are pathogens or spores, it can cause issues and complications with the next grow. How likely that is to happen though, who knows. Also easier not having to reuse it as its never as light and fluffy after the plants roots have had their way with the medium.  

[Ill_Evan]

3 minutes ago, PsyCLown said:

I assume you want to make reference to the nutrients which are sometime visible on the fabric pot from the nute solution getting on the fabric and then drying?

Which is funnily enough not even the reason I wash the pots. I wash them in hot water and H2O2 to deal with any latent pathogens and to also loosen up any roots that got stuck in the fabric. Salt buildup means nothing to me. 

[CreX]

1 minute ago, PsyCLown said:

 

 

Reusing coco and/or soil, if there are pathogens or spores, it can cause issues and complications with the next grow. How likely that is to happen though, who knows. Also easier not having to reuse it as its never as light and fluffy after the plants roots have had their way with the medium.  

it is actually a pain in the ass...and i am only doing it currently because i am broke ass and laying down 200l+ per run is not on my budget lol

first i break up the dry coco and roots and pick out only the largest clumps of roots - then i put it in my shower and run water through it till the runoff ec is 0.1, then i fill up a bucket with 10% nute mix and run that through the coco. oh! also noting the ph runoff so i can adjust the ph before adding the below.

after that i add a few amendments, Calcium, humates, mycos, rock dust, and mix it in all by hand - let the coco sit for a while or use it right away, both seem fine

[Ill_Evan]

2 minutes ago, CreX said:

it is actually a pain in the ass...and i am only doing it currently because i am broke ass and laying down 200l+ per run is not on my budget lol

Same. I am currently on my second re-use cycle although I do add in fresh coco just for consistency's sake. 

[CreX]

Just now, Ill_Evan said:

Same. I am currently on my second re-use cycle although I do add in fresh coco just for consistency's sake. 

i use my large totes for the rinse, these totes have holes drilled into the bottom for drainage.

now, with the coco, if i add water slowly, it runns out the holes, but if i fill up a 20l bucket and dump it on the coco fairly fast, i have then noticed that the bulk of the coco floats, and the small fine bits sink to the bottom and like... plug the holes so that no runoff comes out...

i then churn the coco a fuck load and manage to get more roots out, and makes it light and fluffy again.

then i pick one side of the tote up and all the fine silt runs out and tghen all the water comes out in one fast flow...the amount of times iv nearly flooded my place like this hahahaha.

so i basically end up with a less dense coco after my wash as none of the finer particles remain.

[Marzcanna]

I think we are straying off topic, yes there's research stating that flush doesn't make a difference but people still swear by it, and yes we can reuse coco & soil after synthetics, I've done it before. Some say you clean the pots, I'd hope that you do, but is it an easy process? Is there liable prove that same salt build up doesn't stay in your medium? The flash research was done on flavour which there isn't enough evidence to state it does infact improve taste. We know that the plant is infact intaking those same salts you are trying to wash off the pot and you are also smoking those. The nature of flash to flash out salt biuld up makes sense, and there is research around stating you shouldn't reuse medium that's been used with synthetics, I go by what I've seen, your plant is uptaking those salts and that's a fact. If you feed grape juice a few hours before harvest and actually taste it in some strains (do the experiment first, this is also anther highly debateable topic) whos to say you are not smoking those salts? 

[Ill_Evan]

1 minute ago, Marzcanna said:

We know that the plant is infact intaking those same salts you are trying to wash off the pot and you are also smoking those.

Nope. Just go research the link @PsyCLown posted. 

In fact, here you go. Make it nice and easy. Linky

2 minutes ago, Marzcanna said:

there is research around stating you shouldn't reuse medium that's been used with synthetics

Ok skeif link. 

2 minutes ago, Marzcanna said:

your plant is uptaking those salts and that's a fact

Uhu. 

2 minutes ago, Marzcanna said:

whos to say you are not smoking those salts

Me. 

[CreX]

i dono man... the plants uptake synthetic nutes in the exact same way organic nutes are taken up... 

the plant doesnt see organic nutes and be all like ...mmmm theres mollases in this, or mmmm great banana peel!!

the plant can ONLY absorb elements in their base form... synthetic potassium, or organic potassium is identical...

so no... we are not smoking the salts... because thats just not how a plant absorbs nutes from its meduim....

 

[CreX]

3 minutes ago, CreX said:

i dono man... the plants uptake synthetic nutes in the exact same way organic nutes are taken up... 

the plant doesnt see organic nutes and be all like ...mmmm theres mollases in this, or mmmm great banana peel!!

the plant can ONLY absorb elements in their base form... synthetic potassium, or organic potassium is identical...

so no... we are not smoking the salts... because thats just not how a plant absorbs nutes from its meduim....

 

And yes, you can Chelate nutrients to be more available to the plants root zone, but the plant can still only take up elements and not compounds

[ORGANinc.]

32 minutes ago, PsyCLown said:

@CreX I agree with you on that one.

 

A combination of both organic and synthetic is actually what I do as well and feel it works best. Coco with synthetic nutes but organic / natural additives such as mycorrhizal fungi, trichoderma and some other additives which help support microbe life such as molasses based products and of course microbe incoulants.

 

I know many say and feel the synthtic chemicals and ferts kill the microbes and such, however I have noticed a difference for the better when using these compared to a grow without them.

 

One should not see either method / preference as inferior or better. Both have pros and cons. 

Is Indica better than sativa?

Is an SUV better than a sports car?

Is white a nicer colour than black?

Yes that's correct, the reason that works so well is because microbes are amazing, and you've given them a food source, without organic matter and a 25th of nitrogen, microbes do not have a sufficient diet to survive. Then after they been doused with waaayyyy more than 100 times the amount of nitrogen, their nutrition balance go out of wack, and they start declining. the soil starts oxidizing and so carries on the unsustainable practice of synthetic nutrients. 

Number one problem in agriculture today, No organic matter???  Why??? So much added nitrates that the microbes ate the selves out of there. 

[Marzcanna]

Let's just agree to disagree, I've been around this topic to many times alover, not just here on 420sa and have read all sorts of replies, people disagreing and agreeing, it tells me there's still alot of gray Matta around this topic. it's good to see the take on what the 420sa family have to say that's why I say highly debatable and that's why I choose these topics. I still stand by what Ive said, In 15 years I've done enough expermenting on my own, and theres alot of links suggesting otherwise. I do not only go by reading research, I believe in trying things out for yourself before giving an opinion. But the beauty of growing is everyone has their methods and beliefs and there isn't a right or wrong when it comes to growing and that's a FACT

[Ill_Evan]

6 minutes ago, Marzcanna said:

theres alot of links

Just one crumb of a link please Senpai please! 

[Marzcanna]

2 minutes ago, Ill_Evan said:

Just one crumb of a link please Senpei please! 

Check out Cannabis Lifestyle broadcast on YouTube, they cover alot, pigeons420, Mr grow it & Rob have already covered this in depth detail, if you really want to go into this and step out of your "confort zone" you will find it, you maybe also learn a few other things off this topic by doing the research for yourself. 

[ORGANinc.]

22 minutes ago, CreX said:

i dono man... the plants uptake synthetic nutes in the exact same way organic nutes are taken up... 

the plant doesnt see organic nutes and be all like ...mmmm theres mollases in this, or mmmm great banana peel!!

the plant can ONLY absorb elements in their base form... synthetic potassium, or organic potassium is identical...

so no... we are not smoking the salts... because thats just not how a plant absorbs nutes from its meduim....

 

Ok this is incorrect.

The plant definitely does not take nutrients up the same way, synthetic nutrients come ready with the relative chelated metals to by pass the plasmodesmata (like a backstage pass) these co-enzyme factors make it so easy for nutrients to pass through the membranes. 

Organically feeding either, mollasses (huge array of nutrients) and Banana peel (potassium and stuffs) they come through as microbial metabolites. OR (big one here, changes the way everybody understood nutrient uptake) Through the Rhizophagy cycle - This is endophytic types of fungal and bacterial microbes, that huddle together in a snot patch in the rhizosphere, ready with tied up nutrient, get sucked up by the root tip, (seen on a microscope) spray with superoxidesimutaze (there it is again) inside the ROOOT, that's like alien shit, they basically strip the microbes membrane to pull out the nutrients that come chelated and ready to go! the the microbes get spewed out of the root hairs and go for another cycle.

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by ORGANinc.

[Ill_Evan]

Just now, Marzcanna said:

Check out Cannabis Lifestyle broadcast on YouTube, they cover alot, pigeons420, Mr grow it & Rob have already covered this in depth detail, if you really want to go into this and step out of your "confort zone" you will find it, you maybe also learn a few other things off this topic by doing the research for yourself. 

Shot!

No here's a doozy, why would I go and look at anything you've linked as research if I know for a fact you didn't watch the video in the link I and @PsyCLown posted which disproves flushing and would have also explained how salts, and for that matter, nutrients in general are absorbed by plants. 

So before you go tuning people to step out of their comfort zones, to post links and to do their own research, take some of your own advise and do the same, buddy.

Lead by example. It's your thread after all. 

[Marzcanna]

Just now, Ill_Evan said:

Shot!

No here's a doozy, why would I go and look at anything you've linked as research if I know for a fact you didn't watch the video in the link I and @PsyCLown posted which disproves flushing and would have also explained how salts, and for that matter, nutrients in general are absorbed by plants. 

So before you go tuning people to step out of their comfort zones, to post links and to do their own research, take some of your own advise and do the same, buddy.

Lead by example. It's your thread after all. 

the one with 2k likes stating its a myth? I did, I always stand to be proven wrong. I don't mind being wrong, it's improves my knowledge of my craft the question do others do the same

[ORGANinc.]

18 minutes ago, CreX said:

And yes, you can Chelate nutrients to be more available to the plants root zone, but the plant can still only take up elements and not compounds

Also this one is incorrect from what I understand, above are the compounds, these metabolites are way more complex prefab parts the plant didn't have to expend energy creating.

 

[CreX]

2 minutes ago, ORGANinc. said:

Ok this is incorrect.

The plant definitely does not take nutrients up the same way, synthetic nutrients come ready with the relative chelated metals to by pass the plasmodesmata (like a backstage pass) these co-enzyme factors make it so easy for nutrients to pass through the membranes. 

Organically feeding either, mollasses (huge array of nutrients) and Banana peel (potassium and stuffs) they come through as microbial metabolites. OR (big one here, changes the way everybody understood nutrient uptake) Through the Rhizophagy cycle - This is endophytic types of fungal and bacterial microbes, that huddle together in a snot patch in the rhizosphere, ready with tied up nutrient, get sucked up by the root tip, (seen on a microscope) spray with superoxidesimutaze (there it is again) inside the ROOOT, that's like alien shit, they basically strip the microbes exoskeleton to pull out the nutrients that come chelated and ready to go! the the microbes get spewed out of the root hairs and go for another cycle.

 

alright - a much more elaborate explanation - which i agree with...

i was more trying to get at the point that once organic material is broken down and is now available for the plant to uptake... it doesnt make the elements that the plant uses any different to the synthetic nutes. weather they are absorbed like you said, or via the backstage, its still the same element that has been absorbed.

plant health is an important factor...if you are feeding your plant correctly, you will not have a huge build up of salts in your meduim, but if you are feeding wrong, you get your toxicities.... and regardless weather its organic or synthetic...if you are burning your plants, they gonna taste like shit, but if you have healthy happy plants, you are unlikely to have a build up of synthetic nutes in the buds

[Ill_Evan]

3 minutes ago, Marzcanna said:

the one with 2k likes stating its a myth? I did, I always stand to be proven wrong. I don't mind being wrong, it's improves my knowledge of my craft the question do others do the same

No you didn't. I've been running the video on the side since I posted the link and it's only just now about to finish. 

This thread is officially just opinion, so let's just agree to that and keep posting our opinions instead of claiming any research or facts. 

[Marzcanna]

8 minutes ago, Ill_Evan said:

No you didn't. I've been running the video on the side since I posted the link and it's only just now about to finish. 

This thread is officially just opinion, so let's just agree to that and keep posting our opinions instead of claiming any research or facts. 

We can agree on this, there is no reason for any of us to be hostile, we all leaning towards one thing and that is to better understand our cultivars. Nothing wrong with discusstion, I apologize if I came out hostile aswell wasn't my mention. We are in an environment where people already judge us by what we do over misconception of our hobby or job that's its our duty to stand together as a community rather than divided.

[Ill_Evan]

11 minutes ago, Marzcanna said:

We can agree on this, there is no reason for any of us to be hostile, we all leaning towards one thing and that is to better understand our cultivars. Nothing wrong with discusstion, I apologize if I came out hostile aswell wasn't my mention. We are in an environment where people already judge us by what we do over misconception of our hobby or job that's its our duty to stand together as a community rather than divided.

Gimme direct links to why flushing works, then you let me know when you've finished the MIGRO video, then we meet back here. Hm? 

[ORGANinc.]

1 minute ago, Ill_Evan said:

Gimme direct links to why flushing works, then you let me know when you've finished the MIGRO video, then we meet back here. Hm? 

If flushing is the debate. Then I have to stick to my points the last time we had this discussion. Flushing is vital! 

Not to you me, or anyone who understand what synthetic nutrients really are, but to the beginner grower. Imagine the huge majority of first timers growing out their first bud pushing over recommended serving sizes not flushing, and tasting that chemical mess. They might stop growing completely and i'm sure they have. So this is would actually make flushing an integral step in cannabis cultivation.

Cant just say get it right the first time.