New, higher leaves canoeing into a "V"

[CreX]

51 minutes ago, CG420za said:

I always thought if you're in coco/perlite, you flush with clean water and once you're no longer running off, you'd feed with a weaker mix

 

so it all comes down to ratios of the elements after a feed.

you want the plant to have access to nutrients all the time. you never want your plant without nutes.

if you have a problem with your plant that necessitates a flush, then you would go in with a lower dose...as if the plant was a smaller plant. but once growth is normal again... you should resume at the EC you were at before the problems came up.

so with the ratios. if you feed a plant no till run off, you stand a chance that high levels of un absorbed elements will build up and cause trouble

this is further exaggerated if you add clean water... as the plant will absorb the nutes from the previous feed in the same fassion as before, and further throw out the ratios within the medium... 

that is why you should feed till run off in coco... you are clearing the imbalance out and realigning the ratios to where you would like them.

if you do this each feeding... the medium will always have the right ratio of nutrients... and not a high EC with perhaps too much phosphorus or potassiom or iron or whatever

 

[Noob1903]

1 hour ago, CreX said:

so it all comes down to ratios of the elements after a feed.

you want the plant to have access to nutrients all the time. you never want your plant without nutes.

if you have a problem with your plant that necessitates a flush, then you would go in with a lower dose...as if the plant was a smaller plant. but once growth is normal again... you should resume at the EC you were at before the problems came up.

so with the ratios. if you feed a plant no till run off, you stand a chance that high levels of un absorbed elements will build up and cause trouble

this is further exaggerated if you add clean water... as the plant will absorb the nutes from the previous feed in the same fassion as before, and further throw out the ratios within the medium... 

that is why you should feed till run off in coco... you are clearing the imbalance out and realigning the ratios to where you would like them.

if you do this each feeding... the medium will always have the right ratio of nutrients... and not a high EC with perhaps too much phosphorus or potassiom or iron or whatever

 

Sorry to jump in here;

I understand perfectly what you are saying and I also need to adjust my feeding method.

What is happening when you water every 2nd day, and the feed/water drains out of coco immediately? Some strains obviously need more water but i have a few that when they are due for a feed, i would say i can feed only 500ml before seeing runoff at which point I stop as I don't want the roots sitting in water

Conversely, when a plant seems like it isn't absorbing any water (bag is still heavy after 2/3 days and a feed of 1L) would that be a good time to flush? (Florakleen)

 

[CreX]

3 hours ago, Noob1903 said:

Sorry to jump in here;

I understand perfectly what you are saying and I also need to adjust my feeding method.

What is happening when you water every 2nd day, and the feed/water drains out of coco immediately? Some strains obviously need more water but i have a few that when they are due for a feed, i would say i can feed only 500ml before seeing runoff at which point I stop as I don't want the roots sitting in water

Conversely, when a plant seems like it isn't absorbing any water (bag is still heavy after 2/3 days and a feed of 1L) would that be a good time to flush? (Florakleen)

 

Depends, whether or not the pot is getting lighter... Is the plant growing well? If so, leave the pot to dry out for as many days as she needs until she's light, then feed again at normal ratio. If not... Flush the pot with its volume of nute water... So if it's 20l pot..... Put 20l of phd correctly nuted feed (maybe a bit lower as previously stated, depending on how bad the damage already is) through the pot and then let it dry out... Let the plant take a week or more even... As long as it doesn't sit in the water

I wouldn't use florakleen to help fix a problem.... It is more designed as a pre harvest flush... Which in my opinion, is not needed, I feed a few days before chop... And I say a few days because that's how long it takes my totes to dry out. 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

had to wait to get off work so I can sit down and pay attention,

I kinda get the jist of what you're saying, though I am now more puzzled than before...

thanks for answering all these questions lol this is just some info that seemed hard to come by when I was growing in coco and now my mind is being blown!

the picture you're drawing me is becoming more clear, but now I would like to know the following. 

let's look at your jelly making analogy,

cause this first bit is more about coco and how it works with nutes let's take the plant out the medium, you just got a pot of coco. (assuming raised off the ground and got perfect drainage and everything, dries out perfect) you give water with nutes to it. now what you are saying is that when the medium has dried out all the water has left from the bottom of the pot and the nutes along with it, just simply because water naturally flows toward the earth? that the medium holds no nutes and it flows right through and if it wheren't for the plant making use of some of it you would get all the nutes back out the bottom of the pot?

now put plant back in the picture

you go on to say that saturating your medium with 5L at 500ppm is safer than giving 1L of 500ppm, because the 1L would not sink to the bottom and you would be left with ppm still in the medium by next feed. this statement and what was said with the jelly making analogy don't add up?

you also say no cannabis plant will uptake 500ppm, well I mean.... if I have 1L at 500ppm, it doesn't mean the whole 1L is 500ppm, every drop of water has 500ppm, water can hold much more ppm than a plant could use, that's for sure, but once you pour that solution into your medium it fills the cation sites with nutes, the more you saturate the medium the more cation sites you fill. now concidering what you said about a plant not being able to uptake all the 500ppm wouldn't that mean saturating your medium with 500ppm be a higher risk of the plant not being able to uptake all 500ppm in all those cation sites? you did say no plant can uptake all 500ppm and by giving it 5L of 500ppm would be giving it more than you would with 1L of 500ppm, right? but, this leaves more nutes that are not being used by the plant. naturally, right? so you say those nutes just simply flow to the bottom of the pot because that's how nature works? and they get pushed out when the new nutes enter?

none of the nutes dry out in the medium? all of the nutes that the plant don't use leaves out the bottom? 

I have some coco and synthetic nutes here, I will be doing some testing soon. gona make high EC water and pour into the medium then let it dry out and will pour in some low EC and test first drop of run off. according to what you're saying I should get a low EC reading cause salts don't build up in the medium? 

 

[CreX]

10 hours ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

let's look at your jelly making analogy,

cause this first bit is more about coco and how it works with nutes let's take the plant out the medium, you just got a pot of coco. (assuming raised off the ground and got perfect drainage and everything, dries out perfect) you give water with nutes to it. now what you are saying is that when the medium has dried out all the water has left from the bottom of the pot and the nutes along with it, just simply because water naturally flows toward the earth? that the medium holds no nutes and it flows right through and if it wheren't for the plant making use of some of it you would get all the nutes back out the bottom of the pot?

As the water dries, salts are left behind. correct.

but salts prefer to stay in the dissolved form if there is enough water available. so as the pot dries out (which will take weeks without a plant) the nuts slowly fall out of solution and become salts again... but the bulk of the solution would sink to the bottom of the pot and then when it dries out would put more salts into the meduim, but at the bottom... which is why the bottom of the fabric pots tend to get a bit grimey and cakes with the salt nutes, and not the top of the pots.

the coco cation sites get filled mostly by calcuim and potassuim, leaving little space for the other elements to be grabbed by the coco's cation sites. those other elements remain suspended in the water as long as there is enough water in the pot. when the water starts being absorbed by the plant, then the elements precipitate out onto the surface of the coco, not absorbed or anything... they are just there, on the coco.

Edit - the calcium and potassium that is absorbed by the cation sites ARE NOT AVAILABLE TO THE PLANT

so now when you add fresh wet water, it saturates the meduim again, and because dry salts do not immediately dissolve again, they are carried further down the pot towards the bottom.

10 hours ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

now put plant back in the picture

you go on to say that saturating your medium with 5L at 500ppm is safer than giving 1L of 500ppm, because the 1L would not sink to the bottom and you would be left with ppm still in the medium by next feed. this statement and what was said with the jelly making analogy don't add up?

you also say no cannabis plant will uptake 500ppm, well I mean.... if I have 1L at 500ppm, it doesn't mean the whole 1L is 500ppm, every drop of water has 500ppm, water can hold much more ppm than a plant could use, that's for sure, but once you pour that solution into your medium it fills the cation sites with nutes, the more you saturate the medium the more cation sites you fill. now concidering what you said about a plant not being able to uptake all the 500ppm wouldn't that mean saturating your medium with 500ppm be a higher risk of the plant not being able to uptake all 500ppm in all those cation sites? you did say no plant can uptake all 500ppm and by giving it 5L of 500ppm would be giving it more than you would with 1L of 500ppm, right? but, this leaves more nutes that are not being used by the plant. naturally, right? so you say those nutes just simply flow to the bottom of the pot because that's how nature works? and they get pushed out when the new nutes enter

it depends on the size of your pot... putting in 1l is not going to nourish your plant for very long... you will need to feed daily like that. i also dont even think 1l would reach the bottom of the pot without the coco holding it in suspension. and if you are allowing run off to happen, then 1000 liters of water would never be harmful to the plant...it would actually be highly beneficial if you could get the flow right... think ebb and flow systems or pump and dump or RDWC ... they all flow hundreds of litres through the meduim they use... a few times a day even. so yes, 5l in a 20l pot is way better than 1l .

the idea of the ppm levels we use, is so that the plant has everything it needs....READILY AVAILABLE... not partially available, or sparsely available... technically, if you used a lower ppm there would be 2 issues. one being there is obviously just straight up less nutrients per drop of water and the plant will have to search a bit harder to get what it needs. second.... the plant uses the nutrients and again battles to find more. it is a delicate operation every time we feed...to watch the plants and see how they react... 

i know if i feed my veg plants 250ppm for a few feeds, and my bottom leaves will go yellow because of lack of nutes... likewise i know if i feed my veg at 600ppm... im gonna see crispy plants... we give our plants what we give them and the value we give them...because we are seeing happy growth and nothing else.

to illustrate, as mentioned earlier, if you have an established plant and you have been feeding till no runoff and the plant is happy... but you just want to check runoff to see where you may be... then you get your normal feed ready (eg.500ppm) and you ph it correctly. then you feed your plant until you can collect enough runoff to test with. guaranteed the ppm of the runoff will be higher than your input feed if your plant is happy.

that in itself should be an experiment result to prove that salts get pushed out the pot.

 

[CreX]

5 hours ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

Now what you are saying is that when the medium has dried out all the water has left from the bottom of the pot and the nutes along with it, just simply because water naturally flows toward the earth? that the medium holds no nutes and it flows right through and if it wheren't for the plant making use of some of it you would get all the nutes back out the bottom of the pot?

i didnt read this properly.

but yes...that is exactly what im saying. if you have coco and no plant... you put in 5l of water @500ppm, if you flush the plant with 20l of water you will get all~ (95%) of the nutes back but the nutes will be in 20l now and the ppm will be much much lower... likely 125ppmish~

 

[CreX]

a conclusive experiment would be to take coco, saturate it with a coloured food colouring... leave the pot to dry out a bit, and then feed the pot with a different colour dye and see how what colour the water comes out as.

for exmple start with blue, and then when the pot dries a bit, use yellow.

what im saying is going to happen, is that the blue will come out the pot first, as the same blue you put into the pot, and may fade to a green runnoff as the yellow mixes with the blue

as opposed to the water running out as green from the first bit of runoff after putting the yellow water in

[CreX]

2 minutes ago, CreX said:

a conclusive experiment would be to take coco, saturate it with a coloured food colouring... leave the pot to dry out a bit, and then feed the pot with a different colour dye and see how what colour the water comes out as.

for exmple start with blue, and then when the pot dries a bit, use yellow.

what im saying is going to happen, is that the blue will come out the pot first, as the same blue you put into the pot, and may fade to a green runnoff as the yellow mixes with the blue

as opposed to the water running out as green from the first bit of runoff after putting the yellow water in

https://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/fact-sheets/backyard-farming/water-works-pots-soil/

or you could use this experiment as well... it should work the same.

you take a sponge and put it on its long side and then add coloured water to fully saturate the sponge.

note what happens as per the link. the water gets suspended in the sponge much the same way coco suspends water

you will have the little bit of coloured water sitting at the bottom of the sponge. Now add a second colour and see how it works. the first colour should be pressed out of the sponge by the weight of the new water, and there should be very little mixing of the two colours

[Marzcanna]

In simple terms, they say never let your coco dry so that salts don't build up in your coco, if you feed until runoff and test your runoff EC most of the times your nutes are higher than the input solution, that is because salts are being flushed out,also all the research I have done all suggests the main reason why they say not to water with clean PhD water and rather with a light feed is because of the caution sites leaching on to calcium and not allowing it to be available to the plant, atleast that's what I understand, however I have done for a very long time the water/feed/water/feed with no issues

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

dude thanks hahahah I am honestly greatful for this bit, might try coco again.. 

I think what I did here was over complicate things in my mind. it's very basic actually, but yeah I had it upside down inside out completely!

let me see,

1. If there is a chance of build up it would generally be around the bottom of the pot not in random places in the medium or on the roots.

2. you can "flush out" old nutes with new nutrient water.

3. you shouldn't flush with 0.0ec water, cause that could shock your plant to "starvation" and then you have to "super feed it" and that's no good.  

4. you should keep your coco wet so that it doesn't dry out, because dry soil with unused nutrient is where build up occurs.

5. you don't have to worry about letting your medium dry out because in coco roots move fast, the medium doesn't hold water aslong as it drains perfectly and they get enough oxygen because of this. 

I must say I've had a grow in coco turn out quite amazing, have no idea what I was doing lol!

basically had all 5 those points backwards. smack me with a dead fish

thanks again brother!

[CreX]

2 minutes ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

dude thanks hahahah I am honestly greatful for this bit, might try coco again.. 

I think what I did here was over complicate things in my mind. it's very basic actually, but yeah I had it upside down inside out completely!

let me see,

1. If there is a chance of build up it would generally be around the bottom of the pot not in random places in the medium or on the roots.

2. you can "flush out" old nutes with new nutrient water.

3. you shouldn't flush with 0.0ec water, cause that could shock your plant to "starvation" and then you have to "super feed it" and that's no good.  

4. you should keep your coco wet so that it doesn't dry out, because dry soil with unused nutrient is where build up occurs.

5. you don't have to worry about letting your medium dry out because in coco roots move fast, the medium doesn't hold water aslong as it drains perfectly and they get enough oxygen because of this. 

I must say I've had a grow in coco turn out quite amazing, have no idea what I was doing lol!

basically had all 5 those points backwards. smack me with a dead fish

thanks again brother!

any time my dude... it was good going into depth about it and i hope it makes more sense to anyone who reads it!

and if you think im leading anyone astray or onto a wrong path... tell me so i too can better understand

[Dookie69]

This has been a very educational post. I’m trying to work out how this applies to Coco/perlite (Freedom Farms F1) in Autopots. Autopots are meant to release nutrient enriched pH corrected water as each plant needs, with a more or less wet/dry cycle.
However i think they generally over-water somewhat since the pots almost always sit in saturated trays. Some people fit a water controller to the res which only allows water to flow on a schedule; others elevate the pots slightly within the tray base on a little grid.
I have taken to turning the gravity fed res off every third odd day, and then lifting the pot out of the tray the next day to allow proper drainage and aeration from the bottom of the pot. This mission is necessary till the plant starts to drink properly. Then the reservoir comes into its own.
The wicking system which is how the Autopot works is from the roots up. This makes it the opposite way round to top feeding and watering. Also the medium goes bone dry at the top in early veg but you know full well it is saturated at the bottom. I’m not sure how this fits in with the “never let the Coco go dry” theory.
Autopot instruct that flushing from the top down is not advised because the salts will go down to the roots. However I have found that maybe up to 3 top-down flushes per grow is beneficial, pH’d water with just FloraKleen (FlashClean) gives the plants a real pep up.
Does anyone have any experience with the above situation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PsyCLown]

Geez, what a long thread. Have not read all of it, but coco is king. Simple as that.  

 

@Dookie69 I have never used autopots or taken a look, I have a rough idea as to how they work. Not sure why you'd want to flush though?

However nutrient build up is something you want to avoid, I never flush my plants in coco and I always feed with nutes and not until run off because it is messy and I do not find I have a need to do so. What I do to try help tame the build up of nutes over time is I reduce the strength of the nutes I feed and slowly reduce it slightly throughout flower - in veg I do not do this as the plants are not in veg for long anyways and EC in veg isn't as high as EC in flower.

As for never let coco dry out, well, you can let it dry out but ideally you never want any medium to dry out - be it soil or coco. With that being said, dry coco is easier to rehydrate compared to dry soil. Dry medium with roots in that section of medium, if it stays dry for long enough I think the roots would die off and in essence reduces the volume of medium you have which the plant is and can actually make use of.

Freedom Farms F1 has amendments in it as well, it's not just pure coco with perlite. Next time perhaps give a pure coco and perlite mixture a try and see how it compares, as then the only nutes the plants are getting is from the nutes you are feeding it. Bioleaf is pretty good and well priced compared to the other imported brands and very convenient as it comes ready prepared and mixed in a 60L bag. I believe it is buffered as well, I have started using Bioleaf and do not buffer and my plants are happy.

 

Also my growing method isn't true fertigation, as I use the Blumat carrots - so the coco is hydrated to a certain point and only once it has dried out past a certain point. In veg I typically water by hand as I have never bothered to setup automatic watering as I have often had veg plants in different stages in my veg tent and I typically do not feed newly rooted cuttings with my normal veg strength nutes. I prefer to start them on a lower EC.

[PippinTook]

Hey guys and girls! I'm back again with an update!

https://imgur.com/a/qaRW85U

Things have been going well, just a few small things that mare making me concerned. We are +- 30 days into flowering. In the images, you can see that some of the fan leaves are beginning to turn yellow. This seems a bit premature? You can also see that some of the lower fan leaves seem to have gotten "burnt" around the tips and edges. I've never had this issue before and I haven't changed anything in terms of feeding/lighting schedule etc.

You can also see from the photos that there are white spots covering some of the leaves. I've had Powdery Mildew before and I distinctly remember being able to rub off some of the power with my fingers. These white spots however do not come off. They also seem to be more abundant on the lower leaves of the plants, with some leaves being affected more than others. These leaves also dont seem to be negatively affected by the white spots specifically with the yellowing mentioned above seeming to be an issue disconnected from the white spots.

I hope I've provided enough information and maybe my mind can be put at ease with a few simple solution. But when is life ever simple?

Thanks again in advance!

[The_StonedTrooper]

White spot, are probably thrips, or at worst spider mites. 

[CreX]

44 minutes ago, PippinTook said:

Hey guys and girls! I'm back again with an update!

https://imgur.com/a/qaRW85U

Things have been going well, just a few small things that mare making me concerned. We are +- 30 days into flowering. In the images, you can see that some of the fan leaves are beginning to turn yellow. This seems a bit premature? You can also see that some of the lower fan leaves seem to have gotten "burnt" around the tips and edges. I've never had this issue before and I haven't changed anything in terms of feeding/lighting schedule etc.

You can also see from the photos that there are white spots covering some of the leaves. I've had Powdery Mildew before and I distinctly remember being able to rub off some of the power with my fingers. These white spots however do not come off. They also seem to be more abundant on the lower leaves of the plants, with some leaves being affected more than others. These leaves also dont seem to be negatively affected by the white spots specifically with the yellowing mentioned above seeming to be an issue disconnected from the white spots.

I hope I've provided enough information and maybe my mind can be put at ease with a few simple solution. But when is life ever simple?

Thanks again in advance!

hey @PippinTook! sadly that is all to familiar to me. you have thrips. you could pick off one of those leaves and you will have to look ultra close to see anything. thrips range from about 0.5mm to 1.5mm and they will chow your whole plant fucked.

as for the yellowing, thats likely just normal nitrogen def. i wouldnt add too much in flower, but it does need a smidge.

 

what have you got in your stores for IPM management?

[PippinTook]

25 minutes ago, CreX said:

hey @PippinTook! sadly that is all to familiar to me. you have thrips. you could pick off one of those leaves and you will have to look ultra close to see anything. thrips range from about 0.5mm to 1.5mm and they will chow your whole plant fucked.

as for the yellowing, thats likely just normal nitrogen def. i wouldnt add too much in flower, but it does need a smidge.

 

what have you got in your stores for IPM management?

Does this mean my whole harvest is fucked? How much damage can can they do in another 40 days of flowering? This taking into account many leaves dont even look affected so perhaps its still early days?

I dont have anything on hand right now. I need too look up a safe recipe for a "pesticide" that i can just drench the plant in. 

[The_StonedTrooper]

Check this out, to familiarize yourself with them

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/plant-problems/pests/insects/controlling-thrips.htm

[PippinTook]

Im seeing Neem oil as the go to treatment for this

[The_StonedTrooper]

1 minute ago, PippinTook said:

Im seeing Neem oil as the go to treatment for this

Yes, but this late in flower, you cant or should not, and you'll likely be okay to pick the leaves off and let it ride out to harvest now.

[CreX]

you would be surprised at how fast they can multiply if left unchecked

 dont research too much... the stuff that works is neem, pyrol, efecto insect control, or perhaps a legion of swarskii mites to eat the thrips and their larvae and eggs.

 

[PsyCLown]

I say spray with Efecto Insect Control, it is safe to use - you're only a month into flower so that is perfect. A single spray will do and get your through to harvest time.

I wouldn't spray Neem. Pyrol might work but more than one application would be required.

 

@The_StonedTrooper Thrips multiply like crazy and will destroy the leaves completely, in turn killing the plant. I had such an issue once when trying to be lazy and not spray - I think I was actually waiting for stuff to spray to arrive and was delayed in ordering some. Didn't turn out well for me, plants leaves were f&*ked and they were in flower, so the plants weren't very happy for the remainder of flower and some died before maturing.

[PippinTook]

17 hours ago, PsyCLown said:

I say spray with Efecto Insect Control, it is safe to use - you're only a month into flower so that is perfect. A single spray will do and get your through to harvest time.

I wouldn't spray Neem. Pyrol might work but more than one application would be required.

 

@The_StonedTrooper Thrips multiply like crazy and will destroy the leaves completely, in turn killing the plant. I had such an issue once when trying to be lazy and not spray - I think I was actually waiting for stuff to spray to arrive and was delayed in ordering some. Didn't turn out well for me, plants leaves were f&*ked and they were in flower, so the plants weren't very happy for the remainder of flower and some died before maturing.

Thank you all for the advice, it seems there are multiple things I can do to combat the thrips. Its good to hear that my entire harvest isn't completely ruined. I'm going to go get Effekto Insect Control spray today and ill probably spend an hour or two trying to do each leaf individually. I'm also going to prune all the worst affected leaves. I'll keep this thread updated as things happen

[PippinTook]

1 hour ago, PippinTook said:

Thank you all for the advice, it seems there are multiple things I can do to combat the thrips. Its good to hear that my entire harvest isn't completely ruined. I'm going to go get Effekto Insect Control spray today and ill probably spend an hour or two trying to do each leaf individually. I'm also going to prune all the worst affected leaves. I'll keep this thread updated as things happen

https://imgur.com/a/wzH2Zlf

So I went to the nursery and got myself the closest thing I could find to Effekto's Insect Control. I came home and gave the plant a proper pruning, trying to get the worst affected leaves out of there. I then sprayed the plant thoroughly, from above as well as from below to try get the undersides of as many leaves as possible. The leaves were basically dripping when I was done, I hope I didn't over do it. I watered her before doing anything because I didn't want any pesticide to filter down through to the roots if any of it landed/dripped onto the soil. I just have 2 questions:
1. It doesn't say on the pesticide how often I need to use it, is there a general rule for these things or do i need to do some more research on that?
2. How do I prevent this from happening again? I was thinking of placing a layer of muslin cloth over the intake fan(I know thrips are tiny tiny but this has gotta help even a little bit?) As well as trying to take better precautions when coming from outside I.E. changing clothes and washing hands before opening the tent. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by PippinTook

[Twix Aphen]

What is the active ingredient? It says on the label that it's for ornamental plants. Be careful using systemic synthetic chemicals on your indoor crop.