Veg Tent - Log

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

looks like I am still too heavy handed with the nutes, been on clean water for over 2 weeks now all still not growing 100% gotta stop with my over feeding issue! Clear signs of excessive P and K.

I really need to let the "less is more" thing still sink in! 

[ORGANinc.]

38 minutes ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

looks like I am still too heavy handed with the nutes, been on clean water for over 2 weeks now all still not growing 100% gotta stop with my over feeding issue! Clear signs of excessive P and K.

I really need to let the "less is more" thing still sink in! 

Its difficult, when you find the less is more spot, you also find the area where there's not enough. hard to keep the levels where you want them especially when you eye balling it with organic inputs. 

What did you feed? 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

2 minutes ago, ORGANinc. said:

Its difficult, when you find the less is more spot, you also find the area where there's not enough. hard to keep the levels where you want them especially when you eye balling it with organic inputs. 

What did you feed? 

duuude 100%  

organics is more about reading the plant than anything since there's already nutrients and stuff happening in the soil you're set with a given starting point, where as with hydro you start with basically nothing and follow a schedule from there. 

with organics you gotta know how to speak plant.

I am using the Biobizz range and have been alternating between the Grow and Fish during veg. I see that the Grow has more P and K in it so I am thinking it was too much of that also the fact that they're in recycled soil and I had flowering plants in the soil last where I fed them with BioBloom, so my mind is telling me there's also some left over P and K. I also picked up on your pro tip you dropped recently on using more Fish during veg and when flower comes switching to the Grow together with Bloom. makes a bunch of sence to me since you also need the sugar from the molasses in the Grow more during flower than during veg. 

Either way the clean water for now, but I have a feeling they should be asking for some N real soon and I don't wana wait till that happens. So if they're not looking happy by the end of this week I'll introduce half dose of the Fish.

 

[ORGANinc.]

7 minutes ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

duuude 100%  

organics is more about reading the plant than anything since there's already nutrients and stuff happening in the soil you're set with a given starting point, where as with hydro you start with basically nothing and follow a schedule from there. 

with organics you gotta know how to speak plant.

I am using the Biobizz range and have been alternating between the Grow and Fish during veg. I see that the Grow has more P and K in it so I am thinking it was too much of that also the fact that they're in recycled soil and I had flowering plants in the soil last where I fed them with BioBloom, so my mind is telling me there's also some left over P and K. I also picked up on your pro tip you dropped recently on using more Fish during veg and when flower comes switching to the Grow together with Bloom. makes a bunch of sence to me since you also need the sugar from the molasses in the Grow more during flower than during veg. 

Either way the clean water for now, but I have a feeling they should be asking for some N real soon and I don't wana wait till that happens. So if they're not looking happy by the end of this week I'll introduce half dose of the Fish.

 

Yeah, the liquid feeds are quite strong, so you are probably right that you have too much p and k growing in the same soil. 

I don't know if I said that, probably not me bud. I don't know much about biobizz range, I just know the ingredients and seen that chart a couple of times. Maybe have a look into some sort of Humic/fulvic product to couple with the fish. If you have something lying around. Think it will help with the imbalance if any. 

But yes, they are looking hungry for N, 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

hahahah shit oh well whoever said it, it makes sense

just note, the yellowing on new growth is not N deficiency. those are the beginning stages of excessive P and K symptoms.

or what is it that indicated N deficiency? I could be missing something, but I feel the they gona ask for N soon, because I am not giving any since I am trying to lower overall EC from the excess of other stuff. mainly also the reason for not feeding more right now. 

I wouldn't be able to get it over my heart to feed them anything now knowing how much I fed them before they started looking like this. almost 100% sure there is no deficiency right now and also how I know it's excess. The first deficiency that will show will be N, cause there's a normal amount of it right now, but because I cannot feed just N I can't feed anything at all and risk even more P and K stress. so my only alternative is clean water till the excess symptoms are a little less then slowly half dose of Fish which is N focussed. and then taking it from there.

I got both humic and fulvic acid laying around, but I feel there's not enough information out there for me to comfortably use it. Unless also just with the less is more approach. I have an understanding of the stuff but also only the limited amount information that's out there since these 2 things have not been fully studied yet. Just don't wana "add" more stuff when I am thinking about less is more and knowing very well I already over did it I just feel a step back right now is a step in the right direction. 

[ORGANinc.]

1 hour ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

hahahah shit oh well whoever said it, it makes sense

just note, the yellowing on new growth is not N deficiency. those are the beginning stages of excessive P and K symptoms.

or what is it that indicated N deficiency? I could be missing something, but I feel the they gona ask for N soon, because I am not giving any since I am trying to lower overall EC from the excess of other stuff. mainly also the reason for not feeding more right now. 

I wouldn't be able to get it over my heart to feed them anything now knowing how much I fed them before they started looking like this. almost 100% sure there is no deficiency right now and also how I know it's excess. The first deficiency that will show will be N, cause there's a normal amount of it right now, but because I cannot feed just N I can't feed anything at all and risk even more P and K stress. so my only alternative is clean water till the excess symptoms are a little less then slowly half dose of Fish which is N focussed. and then taking it from there.

I got both humic and fulvic acid laying around, but I feel there's not enough information out there for me to comfortably use it. Unless also just with the less is more approach. I have an understanding of the stuff but also only the limited amount information that's out there since these 2 things have not been fully studied yet. Just don't wana "add" more stuff when I am thinking about less is more and knowing very well I already over did it I just feel a step back right now is a step in the right direction. 

Ya I understand your reasoning. If you want to your total EC to go down, it would not be the best idea to feed. 
 

I refer to the plants having an appearance of lockout, and that’s due to the excess as you say, so it goes all the way up the chain, but that is hindering the uptake of the final Elements like nitrogen, resulting in the lighter colour. Arden Anderson explained the phenomenon as a final Carbon deficiency and not any particular element deficiency, as it works back up the chain. So excess induced deficiencies are annoying because they cause other deficiencies. 
 

that’s why I recommend introducing some humic and fulvic, they do well in situations where there are imbalances, interms of nutrient density, the npk if humic and fulvics are seriously minuscule. To Move ppm up 10 or 20 points with humic sand fulvic would be a physical amount I would never apply, so the amounts, the very tip of a scalpels worth. Research is vast, but the conclusions are noteworthy. 
 

very low doses frequently, and frequently is weekly. Will give best results 

However, I only consider humic and fulvic useful in these situations. Other times, the plants must encourage humic substances to form by themselves. 
 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

On 10/3/2022 at 2:30 PM, ORGANinc. said:

Ya I understand your reasoning. If you want to your total EC to go down, it would not be the best idea to feed. 
 

I refer to the plants having an appearance of lockout, and that’s due to the excess as you say, so it goes all the way up the chain, but that is hindering the uptake of the final Elements like nitrogen, resulting in the lighter colour. Arden Anderson explained the phenomenon as a final Carbon deficiency and not any particular element deficiency, as it works back up the chain. So excess induced deficiencies are annoying because they cause other deficiencies. 
 

that’s why I recommend introducing some humic and fulvic, they do well in situations where there are imbalances, interms of nutrient density, the npk if humic and fulvics are seriously minuscule. To Move ppm up 10 or 20 points with humic sand fulvic would be a physical amount I would never apply, so the amounts, the very tip of a scalpels worth. Research is vast, but the conclusions are noteworthy. 
 

very low doses frequently, and frequently is weekly. Will give best results 

However, I only consider humic and fulvic useful in these situations. Other times, the plants must encourage humic substances to form by themselves. 
 

I see I see  thanks for breaking it down for me!

what dose and of which would you suggest I give? I'll apply and hopefully I will get to understanding the product better through use also hahah I got it free and only used it maybe once or twice, but always felt too uncertain to say I know what I am doing with it.

[ORGANinc.]

16 hours ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

I see I see  thanks for breaking it down for me!

what dose and of which would you suggest I give? I'll apply and hopefully I will get to understanding the product better through use also hahah I got it free and only used it maybe once or twice, but always felt too uncertain to say I know what I am doing with it.

I hear you bro, once you burn your fingers, it’s never the same  

Let us see which one you got? I would just do recommended dose and seriously not be afraid of smashing it twice a week for the begining

Edited October 5, 2022 by ORGANinc.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

13 hours ago, ORGANinc. said:

I hear you bro, once you burn your fingers, it’s a never the same  

Let us see which one you got? I would just do recommended dose and seriously not be afraid of smashing it twice a week for the begining

hahah yeah too true man sometimes can really throw you off a product

here's the Humic Acid - recommended dose is 3-5ml/L during seedling - veg

https://www.greenhouston.co.za/products/humic-acid 

 

here's the Fulvic Acid - recommended dose 2ml/L for small plants, 5ml/L for large plants and 10ml/L for trees. 

https://www.greenhouston.co.za/products/fulvic-acid

because of recommendations I feel Fulvic 3ml/L, what you think? 

[ORGANinc.]

4 minutes ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

hahah yeah too true man sometimes can really throw you off a product

here's the Humic Acid - recommended dose is 3-5ml/L during seedling - veg

https://www.greenhouston.co.za/products/humic-acid 

 

here's the Fulvic Acid - recommended dose 2ml/L for small plants, 5ml/L for large plants and 10ml/L for trees. 

https://www.greenhouston.co.za/products/fulvic-acid

because of recommendations I feel Fulvic 3ml/L, what you think? 

Yes, I think that is a fair amount, I usually do that amount per 5L. If its a fulvic extract similar to that I made myself. I would think the strength would not even nearly be the same. Mine being weaker to some extent. Honestly, I just dissolved whole L tub of Fulvic powder in 2L distilled water. And its effective stuff at that dose.

The liquids are tricky for this reason. But ya, if you worried about the Humic having a decent amount of potassium in it, then rightly so, all humic acids, well the cheap china stuff we get is Leonardite stone (so they say) extracted via chemical potassium extraction. So there is some potassium in it unfortunately. Its okay to have a lot in veg and end of flower, but still too much isn't great. In your case I think the advantage would outweigh the issue it could cause if mis-used. 

I think equal parts of each, around 3-5ml each per 5l will do good.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

little update here.

Wednesday evening I mixed 3ml of each Humic and Fulvic Acid in 4L water. Gave each plant 500ml. haven't seen any crazy reaction which sets me at ease, but I think they're ready for a half dose of Fishmix, they look to be at a stand still for now. 

a little too late already with all the yellowing, but it's time to give the poor ladies some N.  

[Prom]

How much is half dosage? ^^ i never drop below 2ml per liter fish-mix

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

1 hour ago, Prom said:

How much is half dosage? ^^ i never drop below 2ml per liter fish-mix

I usually work on 1ml per liter, so half dose for me would be 0.5ml

these ladies been on a bounce back from a P and K toxicity, so I have been giving just water for about 2 weeks, they starting to show N deficiency and I was notified a P and K toxicity can also show as N deficiency and to give Humic and Fulvic acids, I don't wana add any more P or K really so this is the reason for half dose Fish, working my way back up to full dose.

[Prom]

How can you go toxic with 1ml per liter??? Or how much bloom you chuck in?? 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

7 minutes ago, Prom said:

How can you go toxic with 1ml per liter??? Or how much bloom you chuck in?? 

lol why would you be thinking it's the 1ml of fish that made the P and K toxicity, I never said that  only cause you asked what's half dose for me with fish cause you said you go 2ml, so I said I usually go 1ml normal dose. not that this is what the plants been getting. I am however now going to be giving them half fish working up to full dose. I don't follow the nutrient schedule as you can see my plants don't need too much nutes. I haven't given any bloom either since they still vegging. 

I mix my own soil from spent FF premium classic, I add elemental blend every time. This time I also added insect frass and kelp flakes. spent the whole of August away with work shit, tents shut down plants in the sun all under a 150w flood light till midnight. not the smartest thing to do in the middle of a grow

when I got back ladies where not happy looking, so I jumped in cleaned them nicely and for about 4 waterings I gave them all 1ml of each Grow, Fish and Bloom. this is what I usually do when I see that kind of lacking. you can see my flower tent has responded well, they're also a bit dark green, so I've backed off there too, just clean water till normal grow then back to 1ml alternating. these plants are a bit younger and I am assuming the P and K in the 1ml Grow+Fish+Bloom mix was just a bit too much. 

ultimately, when mixing my own soil, I go for a -just add water- kinda soil. I only wana add nutes if I reeeaally have too. I don't want to depend on them.

[Prom]

4 minutes ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

lol why would you be thinking it's the 1ml of fish that made the P and K toxicity, I never said that  only cause you asked what's half dose for me with fish cause you said you go 2ml, so I said I usually go 1ml normal dose. not that this is what the plants been getting. I am however now going to be giving them half fish working up to full dose. I don't follow the nutrient schedule as you can see my plants don't need too much nutes. I haven't given any bloom either since they still vegging. 

I mix my own soil from spent FF premium classic, I add elemental blend every time. This time I also added insect frass and kelp flakes. spent the whole of August away with work shit, tents shut down plants in the sun all under a 150w flood light till midnight. not the smartest thing to do in the middle of a grow

when I got back ladies where not happy looking, so I jumped in cleaned them nicely and for about 4 waterings I gave them all 1ml of each Grow, Fish and Bloom. this is what I usually do when I see that kind of lacking. you can see my flower tent has responded well, they're also a bit dark green, so I've backed off there too, just clean water till normal grow then back to 1ml alternating. these plants are a bit younger and I am assuming the P and K in the 1ml Grow+Fish+Bloom mix was just a bit too much. 

ultimately, when mixing my own soil, I go for a -just add water- kinda soil. I only wana add nutes if I reeeaally have too. I don't want to depend on them.

When you tell me that you feed Bloom during veg.. we are feeding liquid, not slow releasing... that means the plant automatically absorbs P/K in amounts she doesn't need and will go dark due to Phosphorus abundance... not to much N  There is ZERO need during veg for any flower food, bro. Best examples are my healthy mothers in the mother tent, they only get Grow 2ml/L (little sugar to keep the microbes happy in the soil, i add a lot more molasses as is in Grow when i flower feed, so i use Fish and add by hand, using my Grow stash up on my mothers now, lasts forever ) and Amino Pro 2ml/10L. Haven't seen any P/K for years ^^ and happy ladies, green and sexy.

In short words.. don't feed flower food during veg  not helping 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

8 hours ago, Prom said:

There is ZERO need during veg for any flower food, bro.

there is P and K in both the Grow and the Fish mix... why do you think they do that?

they need it in all phases of plant life just smaller amounts at first. 

I understand the force feeding thing with some liquid organic inputs, but like I mentioned, they where lacking in all departments and the same way you give grow and focus on the sugar that keeps the microbes happy, I give P and K not only cause they looked like they needed it, but also to keep enzymes alive, because as we all know it takes a specific enzyme to break down specific compounds and they all need to be present to form a complete symbiosis. most plant enzymes are stimulated/activated strictly by K ions. phosphates are broken down by phosphatase. they all need to be present at all times to make the soil "alive".

there's also elemental blend in the soil as mentioned before, which has to break down a bunch and slowly release nutrients over time.

either way, I clearly overdid it here with the P and K, but I am sure had I not neglected all the plants for a month then try to make up for it by being heavy handed, maybe one feed less wouldn't have caused the roots to lock out N like is now. 

because of this, instead of dark green, the new growth turned bright yellow as seen in the photos, older growth stayed green turned a little darker.

looking back the amount of P and K in the grow and fish mix might have been enough, anyway we live and we learn.  

thanks for the help and inputs!

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

just keeping my threads alive, haven't been able to post as much

gave them 2 waterings with 2ml/L fish, looks like we're back on track, new growth on the girls all looking good returned to normal green. stripped all the damaged fan leaves, looks like I did a preflower defoliation, going back down to 1ml Fish as there is less biomass now after the strip.

will post photos soon 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

damn more than half a year, a lot has changed... since building my own soil and moving away from bottled nutes things have been looking different. 

got a small batch of 5 different phenos of the Strawberry Sugarcookie by our local master @Totemic will be cloning them all, looking for the best out the bunch, after this gona dig to find a good male to knock up a lady with. time to start crossing, also got sts long time ago to do some reversing, gotta pull my socks up and get busy! 

plant is about 30 to 45cm high and throwing leaves bigger than my hand. 

one finger one one of the girls leaves made a duck foot, not the whole leaf, just one finger bottom left finger

[ORGANinc.]

Nice mulch 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

lol it's just normal hay stalks that I use for the mushrooms. would have liked to use barley, but didn't have on hand

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

oh wait, you mean the leaves will make nice mulch?

[ORGANinc.]

2 hours ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

oh wait, you mean the leaves will make nice mulch?

Lol na, I just like to see a thick layer of a mulch. Very beneficial for the plants and roots.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

Man, these local genetics grow too fast I was planning on having the flower tent at least halfway done before even thinking bout flipping these. gotta clone them asap then flip I guess

Will take them out the tent to photograph individually and note a few characteristics I am picking up in during veg, but we all know it's the end result that matters most  

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

5 seeds = 3 clear different phenos, with notable differences in structure, size and leaves - got 2 tall girls with slight variations between the 2 of them, then another 2 medium sized that look identical very very little variation between these two and then one odd girl very compact short bushy babe. slight variations on all morphology, though there's more uniformity that can be noted than variations. Same smells coming off all except 1 of the taller girls got a more chemical leaning smell - almost like the kiddies strawberry flavoured toothpaste, sweet but chemical kinda smell. 

cut the first 2 clones off each girl yesterday, here's to hoping for at least 1 of each to root.  

Family Photo - 1 through 5 left to right

Close ups 

1 - 

2 - 

3 - 

4 - 

5 - 

that's all for now folks, next update we will be looking at bud morphology.