Lebanese

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

The only information on Sativas taking longer to finish indoors than outdoors, that I could find, was that you can veg for as long as you want indoors as you control the light cycle and push it for longer than the plant would naturally outdoors following the seasons. I do however find more information supporting the stating that the more Sativa leaning the genes, the longer the plant will take to finish. I guess that statment comes from the fact that there are lists of traits that seperate and define the genetics and this happens to fall under what represents a part of a Sativa genetic. Then there's also a lot of reference to the idea that the more environmental fluctuations the longer any given plant will take to finish. Not only cannabis. What that means is that, because we control the environment when growing indoors (again, any plant) there should be less hiccups/hurdles that would cause the plant to finish earlier. No cloudy days, minimal obstructions throwing shade, minimal external factors that can cause stress such as heavy winds, extreme high/low RH, hot/dry winds suffocating the leaves, long perdiods of rain with high RH. All these things that are ever present when growing outdoors and cannot be controled will play part in extending the time the plant takes to finish.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

Those plants are flowering, because of the same reason everyones outdoor cannabis is flowering at some random time this year. 

[rdc420]

56 minutes ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

The only information on Sativas taking longer to finish indoors than outdoors, that I could find, was that you can veg for as long as you want indoors as you control the light cycle and push it for longer than the plant would naturally outdoors following the seasons. I do however find more information supporting the stating that the more Sativa leaning the genes, the longer the plant will take to finish. I guess that statment comes from the fact that there are lists of traits that seperate and define the genetics and this happens to fall under what represents a part of a Sativa genetic. Then there's also a lot of reference to the idea that the more environmental fluctuations the longer any given plant will take to finish. Not only cannabis. What that means is that, because we control the environment when growing indoors (again, any plant) there should be less hiccups/hurdles that would cause the plant to finish earlier. No cloudy days, minimal obstructions throwing shade, minimal external factors that can cause stress such as heavy winds, extreme high/low RH, hot/dry winds suffocating the leaves, long perdiods of rain with high RH. All these things that are ever present when growing outdoors and cannot be controled will play part in extending the time the plant takes to finish.

Maybe I'm wrong about this. I just repeated a rumour I heard.

 

48 minutes ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

Those plants are flowering, because of the same reason everyones outdoor cannabis is flowering at some random time this year. 

Wow you seem to know my garden/genetics/conditions much better than me. My other (non-Leb) plants aren't flowering yet. Semi-autoflower plants are supposed to flower early. Who else has outdoor plants that are flowering at the wrong time of year?

Edited January 17, 2022 by rdc420
grammar

[Ill_Evan]

5 minutes ago, rdc420 said:

Wow you seem to know my garden/genetics/conditions much better than me.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

dude  

everything I said ties in together with itself, the plant isn't flowering sooner because of some genetic thing, it's conditional. how can you admit that you're repeating a rumour about plants taking longer inside and shorter outside, but then you go on to say that I am wrong for saying the plant is just flowering cause of conditions. you're contradicting yourself, that plant is just a normal plant reacting to its environment. 

14 hours ago, rdc420 said:

Wow you seem to know my garden/genetics/conditions much better than me. 

at least I didn't have to say it!!! look, I didn't try to hurt your feelings, but look at it logically - what the hell is a semi-auto even? either it is auto or not. do you know how autos are made?

I'll be nice, because I can see you haven't been around long, but really do some research before asking these things....

14 hours ago, rdc420 said:

Who else has outdoor plants that are flowering at the wrong time of year?

if you wana ask that to proove a point, at the very least you need to know there is valid information suppurting your side of the argument, but now that you threw that at me you gona have to indulge what I am about to throw at you. 

I, myself, had 3 different strains push flowers in November 2021. photoperiod plants I have grown indoors on previous runs. are they also now semi-auto, just cause they flowered early? no. so there you go for your first example. 

second - I am not gona waste peoples time by tagging them and having them come read through all this for nothing. So I will copy the link to a few threads, you can look through them, each will contain examples of people who had early flowers this year. From there it's on you to do your own research, because to you what should be most important is finding out the truth and not trying to sound cool.

First - Photoperiod flowers in November 2021

Second - Photoperiod flowers December 2021

Third - Photoperiod flowers December 2021

Fourth - he grows a lot of plants, I am sure these are different ones, all flowering 

Fith - our guy Dave also grows a lot of plants, some of them true autos, but likely a bunch of photoperiods aswell

Anyway, it's likely that there are a bunch more, but I am not going to bother with more threads. The whole forum is open for your browsing and you don't even have to research that far back as it is all based on recent events. Besides just the forum, in real life I know quite a few growers, we all had plants outdoors going into flower. one big time grower I know pushing his second outdoor harvest for the year. same like Bos in his one thread. 

to conclude, what do I believe is more likely - that you have something soooo rare and special that minimal people even know it exists, or that you're just having the same outdoor experience as the rest of us? 

I believe the latter.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

by saying "semi-auto" you mean other people growing autos all have "pure autos". 

what does that mean? pure Ruderalis?

I don't think anyone wants pure Ruderalis. 

all autos only carry a trait of Ruderalis crossed with other genetics. 

so technically, all "autos" are "semi-auto"

[rdc420]

1 hour ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

you have something soooo rare and special that minimal people even know it exists

This is exactly what I'm saying. Here's the strain description, taken from https://www.icmag.com/forum/icmag-vendor-forums/ace-seeds/349127-lebanese:
 

Quote

Lebanese

01-26-2018, 12:34

 

AUTHENTIC PURE LEBANESE, WORLD-FAMOUS FOR PRODUCING THE RENOWNED RED AND BLONDE LEBANESE HASH

https://www.aceseeds.org/en/libanostd.html

After more than a decade of breeding and intense selections, we have the pleasure to offer you this classic lebanese sativa, a traditional hash plant, famous for producing the renowned red and blonde lebanese hash.

A very uniform, vigorous and well-branched pure sativa, especially adapted for outdoor growing in hot and arid climates, showing excellent resistance against drought and high temperatures. Although its flowering is moderate (9-11 weeks), this lebanese sativa matures early (at the end of summer) due to its semi-autoflowering tendencies, which mean it begins to flower after about a month and a half of life.

 

Its flowers produce delicate and resinous foxtailed buds, which accumulate with successive re-flowerings, forming large sized colas. The aromas in flowering are sweet and floral, acquiring mango tones during curing. 'Blonde hash' aroma in the smoke, reminiscent of moroccan hash.

Its effect is clean, cheerful and pleasant, a great quality high that is smooth and not too long lasting, with great medicinal potential due to its remarkable content in CBD. This lebanese strain consistently produces CBD quantities between 6 and 16%.

ACE Seeds offers you another gem of the cannabis world, a essential traditional hash plant, that should be present in any landrace lovers' seed collection.

 

1 hour ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

Fourth - he grows a lot of plants, I am sure these are different ones, all flowering

I see that these seedlings/clones were placed under lights for the first part of their lives. Did the photoperiod changed when they were moved outside?

 

11 minutes ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

so technically, all "autos" are "semi-auto"

This is incorrect. Please read the Lebanese strain description above.

 

[Ill_Evan]

I gotta say, I'm not even 100% sure what's happening here with early flowering photoperiods/autos due to environmental conditions vs genetics. 

My gut feeling it's a mixed answer where certain plants with certain genetic triggers are influenced by certain environmental factors. In a way you could call all photoperiods "semi-auto" using this reasoning. However maybe the Lebanese strain is simply very sensitive to environmental changes that genetically trigger its flowering period, more sensitive than the traditional photoperiod, and maybe this is because of the environment the strain has had to adapt to, which at first thought doesn't immediately spring to mind "ideal" conditions, "especially adapted for outdoor growing in hot and arid climates, showing excellent resistance against drought and high temperatures".

I rate @Naughty.Psychonaut is correct in his assessments then, and I also appreciate the effort you went through to dig out grow diaries to help prove your arguments. Yes, maybe redundantly it all boils down to environmental conditions which trigger the plants to react, but they gotta have that genetic trait, which is what I think @rdc420 is saying.

I also think @rdc420 is going on genuine information that they retrieved themselves and from others close to them so let's give them the benefit of the doubt, it's starting to become quite an interesting debate that I for one am actually interested to find the answer to.

If we can keep it lekker and civil I think we could come up with something good here. Keep it up. 

[CreX]

here is why your plants are flowering a bit earlier. first you have to know that different strains of weed will flower even if the 12\12 light schedule is not observed.

some strains can start flowering with 14-15 hours of light and less dark. typically, the rule is to induce flowering, you need a solid 8 hours of darkness to flower, which leaves as much as 16 hours of light for some strains in extreame cases!!

now lets look at the sun guide for south africa, Sun guide , straight away you can see that november has enough darkness to induce flowering, with the best time to start flowering is in March.

if you can erect an outdoor light, can be very low watts, then you can trick your plant to then its still full veg time and then when you take the light away in march, you will grow indoor quality outdoor... or what they are calling Greendoor of late.

this should also clear up the misconception of a semi auto realizing the fact that some photo period plants can flower in seemingly veg conditions.

there are 3 types of cannabis
 

Photo periods - these require a change in the lighting conditions to start flowering - this is 100% controllable 

Autos - these will flower when they are ready and no amount of different light schedule changes will trigger a flowering response which is built in to the plants biological clock

Ruderalis - this is the plant that is mixed into a photo period plant to make an auto, this plant does not produce significant yeild at all and its only value is to pass along the Auto gene to plants that actually do yeild well, 

there is no such thing as a semi auto, it either requires a change in ligh cycle to flower, or it does not.

As for the sativa question... here in sunny south africa, we cant really complain about the weather we have outdoors, and in saying that, if you have a great season with plenty sunny days and minimum overcast or rainy days, the chances are very high that the outdoor plant will not only finish a week or so faster, but will also grow much larger buds than the indoor clone. the sun is so powerful and us indoor growers often take its raw power for granted.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

1 hour ago, Ill_Evan said:

I let's give them the benefit of the doubt,

Ok, cool cool, I am down to give the benefit of the doubt. I should really only be as adamant about my argument if I have analytical proof. Right now I am going off a hunch based on general consensus. 

the part that gets me is this - If it has ruderalis in it,  it can't be pure Sativa. If it is 100% Sativa it has no Ruderalis in it.

I am just having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that these genetics are so rare and special, yet it's available for anyone online. something in my gut tells me this is all marketing hype. If I had a dog in the show I'd be putting in a few good words aswell. 

52 minutes ago, rdc420 said:

This is incorrect. Please read the Lebanese strain description above.

 

I did, I read nothing about the matter, they just say "semi-automatic tendencies". that sounds like gibberish. Again, If it has ruderalis in it,  it can't be pure Sativa. If it is 100% Sativa it has no Ruderalis in it. period. there is absolutely no data showing how a strain can be pure or semi auto. Also, the statement of 100% sativa is just a hot load of bullybeef anyway and I wont eat one bite of it. in fact this makes me more resistent to believe anything from that page. 

the ACE breeder clearly wants us to know where it was found and that he had to do extensive screening and searching for the pure Sativa. wana know why? because a little bit of background on cannabis will tell you that looking for pure Sativa/Indica/Ruderalis in any given gene pool right across the world is basically like looking for a needle in an ever expanding haystack, because things keep crossing with eachother and mutating. even the purest of the pure Sativas from a 100 years ago will have some Indica in it.

you guys know about plant plasticity? phytomorphology? geological influence? for years and years and years, literally thousands and thousands of years cannabis has been breeding with itself in nature, since the oldest record of cannabis use in 2700BC it has been one of the most sacred plants that have been moved around with human intervention and had to change and change and adapt and adapt through literall thousands of years, then along comes a human in 2022 and within his one lifetime he finds the pure thing everyones been looking for?

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

and then on top of saying he found a pure sativa, he says that there are auto traits in the plant.... 

cool....

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

skip to 4:20  that's really just the biggest coincidence. 

this video is titled Hydro vs Bio debate, but they end up talking about what we're talking about. the two modern kings of cannabis chatting it up.. 

Arjans words, not mine, "Real Sativa, I am talking about 15/16 weeks. Not the ones you get in America" 

[rdc420]

The semi-auto trait is also found in Moroccan Beldia Kif, which is another landrace plant. Here's a description of this trait [1] :

Quote

Over the centuries, kif plants have adapted to a summer with less and less rainfall becoming Quasi auto-flowering. The only other auto-flowering cannabis strains come from cannabis ruderalis. It is a low-thc Cannabis species originating from Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Cannabis Ruderalis flowers early because the Estern European summer is short and fall season is to cold for the plants to fully mature. Likewise, Kif has gradually started flowering earlier because the end of summer and early fall are too dry for the plant to survive. It is not an auto-flowering variety per say but it requires much shorter dark periods than most cannabis strains in order to enter its flowering stage. The Moroccan Beldia is therefore a semi-autoflowering variety.

 

5 hours ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

Real Sativa, I am talking about 15/16 weeks. Not the ones you get in America

If you are looking for a long-flowering pure sativa, you can try the Oldtimer's Haze from ACE seeds [2][3]. It has a flowering time of 14-20 weeks! ACE also has many Real Sativa varieties with somewhat shorter flowering times.

 

[1] https://khalifagenetics.com/beldia-the-endangered-moroccan-landrace/

[2] https://www.aceseeds.org/en/oldtimershazestd.html

[3] https://www.icmag.com/forum/icmag-vendor-forums/ace-seeds/54839-oldtimer-s-haze

[rdc420]

7 hours ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

Also, the statement of 100% sativa is just a hot load of bullybeef anyway and I wont eat one bite of it.

Pure sativas can be found. You just need to know where to look.

[Weskush]

Lets stop this semi auto malarky.

This is just some marketing mumbo jumbo.

Are you an ACE seeds brand ambassador by any chance?

[rdc420]

16 minutes ago, Weskush said:

Lets stop this semi auto malarky.

This is just some marketing mumbo jumbo.

Thanks for the kind words. You seem like a great guy.

 

16 minutes ago, Weskush said:

Are you an ACE seeds brand ambassador by any chance?

No, but I haven't found a breeder with more info about their strains and more grow reports on the internet.

[Weskush]

Apologies if i came across as a doos but seriously. This semi auto thing is getting to me. There is no such thing as also mentioned by some of our more experienced growers on this forum.

I like your grow and will gladly follow along but please get over the semi auto part brother.

@420SA pls clean up this thread to where the semi auto debacle took off. I would like to see this man's progression and also to keep positive vibes. If you don't mind.Thanks

Edited January 18, 2022 by Weskush

[Ill_Evan]

22 minutes ago, Weskush said:

@420SA pls clean up this thread to where the semi auto debacle took off. I would like to see this man's progression and also to keep positive vibes. If you don't mind.Thanks

No need to censor anything, I wanted to give @rdc420 a chance to see where it went. You never know what you might learn. 

I think everyone's given their 2c's on the strain debate and the topic of semi-auto, so let's agree to disagree. 

At the end of the day it's a grow diary and we would really like to see your growing progress @rdc420  keep up the updates my dude. 

[Khakibos]

I've been spending the day reading through the ACE seeds Lebanese thread over on ICmag as much as I could and its pretty interesting, definitely keen to see how your plants turn out  

[rdc420]

39 minutes ago, Weskush said:

This semi auto thing is getting to me.

I'm not sure why this is such a big problem for you. I guess I can use alternative words, such as "early", or "highly photo-period sensitive". However, semi-auto is the word that landrace collectors/breeders use, so why change anything?

I'm not feeling much love here, so I might just delete this thread.

[Weskush]

Ey i love you man. I just din't love the term semi auto.

Lets leave it at that and be irie.

Looking forward to seeing your plants mature bru

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

@rdc420 don't delete the thread man, we're all excited to see how this goes as you can see how much attention you already got here! a bunch of us are very interested in this like Evan said, at the end of the day it's a grow dairy and no matter what we call the plant or what people want others to be calling the plant, I am still excited to see what you do with them!!

Edited January 18, 2022 by Naughty.Psychonaut
grammar

[THCSA]

Ja, they are flowering very early. That's cool as I usually have the opposite experience with sativas.

[rdc420]

A number of weeks ago I chucked the pollen from the two males onto two branches of each female. The pollinated branches have become so heavy with seeds that they've started bending over sideways! I've since added some support to prevent the branches from breaking. Here's a pic of a seeded branch:

 

Unfortunately the broader-leaf female has become over-fertilised, as can be seen from the "claw" leaf shape. I've since removed the top-dressing layer and flushed with water. Let's hope it doesn't get worse.

 

[rdc420]

The bud structure is very loose and I'm seeing plenty of foxtails developing. This is good for making hash since a large surface area makes it a little easier to extract the trichomes. 

 

The leaf claw symptoms are still visible on about 10% of the leaves on the wider-leaf pheno.