Advice on Flushing

[Totemic]

Always an interesting subject. 

To flush or not to flush. I used to flush the medium once or twice in flower while using salts. More to lower the buildup of salts, and kind of reset the medium for a fresh feed. 

But with organics I feed right up until harvest.

Any plant fade is in my opinion the plant is going hungry. I'm not talking about anthrocyanins from cold, but Nutrient deficiency fades. Sure fades are beautiful, but still a sign of a hungry plant. 

Since I've moved on to keep feeding until harvest, my plants leaves mostly remain a vibrant green, and the resulting flowers I harvest have no pronounced drop in quality, nor are they harsh... 

 

 

 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

@CreX I'm gona take a step back, to let you cool off. Infact I'll take many steps back, cz this clearly has two right answers.

I think your experience is giving you a little confirmation bias. You're not angry or emotional at me, it's the information that doesn't sit well with your seasoned experience, because I was just repeating the information given based on the study.  

contradicting myself is a little rich coming from you since you been saying the whole time that doing less and using less resources is a waste of time and money  

c'mon man, I am not trying to offend you. but for real.... I use biobizz, when I have 10 plants in full flower, 4 in 20L pots get getting 2L every 2 days, and 6 plants in 60L pots outdoor that gets 3L every day. over a week of 7 days that's 150L of water every week. right? Giving biobizz bloom nute in late flower 4ml/L = 600ml of biobizz bloom every week. doing that for 2 weeks when I could have saved 1.2L of fucking biobizz bloom? how do you know what financial state I am in that that should be negligible??? are you kidding me? you're just gona randomly assuming EVERYONE has money to waste? and you know the bigger the scale operation the bigger the waste. soooooo?????

I might be OK in that regard, because I am small scale with an allright cashflow, but the one thing I don't have to waste is time. I am not even doing everything I wana do and I don't have time to waste, don't know bout you.?

bro.... not trying to be funny, but what's up? you can't be this offended by this topic alone? 

where are my priorities? fuuuuck me, have you smoked my weed? don't think you wana cause you'd probably not like it cause I flush mine  

I reuse my soil and sometimes the ppm in the medium is still too high for seedlings or small cuttings after two weeks of clean water. where is this wasting that I am doing? I actually have to add perlite and peat to the rich medium to reduce the organic matter for younger plants and keep them in seperate small pots. you make it sound like I am throwing nutes away when actually I am just not giving any more...  

[CreX]

8 minutes ago, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

@CreX I'm gona take a step back, to let you cool off. Infact I'll take many steps back, cz this clearly has two right answers.

I think your experience is giving you a little confirmation bias. You're not angry or emotional at me, it's the information that doesn't sit well with your seasoned experience, because I was just repeating the information given based on the study.  

contradicting myself is a little rich coming from you since you been saying the whole time that doing less and using less resources is a waste of time and money  

c'mon man, I am not trying to offend you. but for real.... I use biobizz, when I have 10 plants in full flower, 4 in 20L pots get getting 2L every 2 days, and 6 plants in 60L pots outdoor that gets 3L every day. over a week of 7 days that's 150L of water every week. right? Giving biobizz bloom nute in late flower 4ml/L = 600ml of biobizz bloom every week. doing that for 2 weeks when I could have saved 1.2L of fucking biobizz bloom? how do you know what financial state I am in that that should be negligible??? are you kidding me? you're just gona randomly assuming EVERYONE has money to waste? and you know the bigger the scale operation the bigger the waste. soooooo?????

I might be OK in that regard, because I am small scale with an allright cashflow, but the one thing I don't have to waste is time. I am not even doing everything I wana do and I don't have time to waste, don't know bout you.?

bro.... not trying to be funny, but what's up? you can't be this offended by this topic alone? 

where are my priorities? fuuuuck me, have you smoked my weed? don't think you wana cause you'd probably not like it cause I flush mine  

I reuse my soil and sometimes the ppm in the medium is still too high for seedlings or small cuttings after two weeks of clean water. where is this wasting that I am doing? I actually have to add perlite and peat to the rich medium to reduce the organic matter for younger plants and keep them in separate small pots. you make it sound like I am throwing nutes away when actually I am just not giving any more...  

you get very argumentative on many subjects in many topics dude, im not just going to let you steam roll everyone with your bias to flushing.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

8 minutes ago, CreX said:

you get very argumentative on many subjects in many topics dude, im not just going to let you steam roll everyone with your bias to flushing.

cool

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

guys, you may save your nutes and money and time, don't listen to him. he just doesn't like me

aint no debate, mate

[Weskush]

And another hot topic debateGotta love to hear everyone's opinions on different matters. This is after all why we are here for. To grow and to learn. I myself have learned a fuck load since joining this community. Sometimes egos do come in the way of a debate but hey, that's human nature. Lets keep on learning from each other and leave the egos at the back door. Peace brothers and sisters

[Weskush]

Last add on to this thread from my side.

 

[Chris Jay]

Ding ding ding, Take a step back, no you take a step back man. Love this lively debate. I believe in flushing, it makes common sense to me, regardless of debate and science. You know when you been pumping too much stuff into your system, chips, crisps, chocolate, LSD, etc, you do a detox to revitalise your body, thats how I feel about growing cannabis, detox it at the end. The science says there is no proof that flushing adds any value, screw science when most of the world still believes in a man born 2000 years ago and his word is stone. 

Further to my waffle, what I like about flushing plants with water is it bulks them up with H2O, look at a plant how quickly it absorbs the water on a hot day. I think it helps with the curing process too, it slows down the drying for a nice smooth curing process. Added benefit is you save on nutrients. Put that in your pipe. 

[Golden-Goose]

I let my plants cannibalize themselves in the last 14 to 16 days. In the last 10 years, I've done both. Feed to the end, as well as "flush" at the end. To clarify, I'm not actually flushing anything. I just let the plants starve at the end. Doesn't hurt my yields, and in my experience, I get a smoother smoke. 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

1 hour ago, Totemic said:

Always an interesting subject. 

To flush or not to flush. I used to flush the medium once or twice in flower while using salts. More to lower the buildup of salts, and kind of reset the medium for a fresh feed. 

But with organics I feed right up until harvest.

Any plant fade is in my opinion the plant is going hungry. I'm not talking about anthrocyanins from cold, but Nutrient deficiency fades. Sure fades are beautiful, but still a sign of a hungry plant. 

Since I've moved on to keep feeding until harvest, my plants leaves mostly remain a vibrant green, and the resulting flowers I harvest have no pronounced drop in quality, nor are they harsh... 

 

 

 

thank you for this and not going out of your way to call anything "bro science" or any other "silly names"

@CreX I didn't even call your statements "bro science" even though that's literally all it is. I gave you the benefit of the doubt while you came at me swinging and crying. I am not out to get you or catch you slipping, I mean you no harm, nor do I to anyone, but I will not be told actual science is bro science when in fact the reality is just that you like to do things a different way than the theory would have it. and by theory I mean it explains facts with evidence. just because you do it differently and have results you're happy with doing it your way doesn't make factual studies any less factual. 

infact, if you say I have a bias, can you quickly quote me where I said what kinda weed I prefer? if you can do so it's a miracle. you, on the other hand, have stated countless times that your theory is based on nothing but your past experience. that's the defenition of having confirmation bias. no science behind that. what my point is, I have no bias, I was repeating evidence. you don't have to agree with it. that's alright. but it's not gona change what the results of the study was and it's not gona make it any less of a study because you feel so. your science is bro science, because it's based on nothing but your feelings. 

I won't say anything more cz I am tired of pussy footing around peoples feelings, especially if they have fuckall factual evidence themself and wana fight everi bit of information given to them by pouring anger out all over the story. sorry for those who where just here having a conversation, I was enjoying the valuable back and forth untill the "bro science" was used so contradictingly. sorry for those who had to bare witness and most of all sorry to @Slartibarfast for turing your thread into a octagon  

ding ding ding, I'm out ✌✌✌ 

take it ease ouens, I'll take some time to reflect on my actions and try to come back a little softer for you all so I don't get so argumentative

[Slartibarfast]

thank you for this and not going out of your way to call anything "bro science" or any other "silly names"
@CreX I didn't even call your statements "bro science" even though that's literally all it is. I gave you the benefit of the doubt while you came at me swinging and crying. I am not out to get you or catch you slipping, I mean you no harm, nor do I to anyone, but I will not be told actual science is bro science when in fact the reality is just that you like to do things a different way than the theory would have it. and by theory I mean it explains facts with evidence. just because you do it differently and have results you're happy with doing it your way doesn't make factual studies any less factual. 
infact, if you say I have a bias, can you quickly quote me where I said what kinda weed I prefer? if you can do so it's a miracle. you, on the other hand, have stated countless times that your theory is based on nothing but your past experience. that's the defenition of having confirmation bias. no science behind that. what my point is, I have no bias, I was repeating evidence. you don't have to agree with it. that's alright. but it's not gona change what the results of the study was and it's not gona make it any less of a study because you feel so. your science is bro science, because it's based on nothing but your feelings. 
I won't say anything more cz I am tired of pussy footing around peoples feelings, especially if they have fuckall factual evidence themself and wana fight everi bit of information given to them by pouring anger out all over the story. sorry for those who where just here having a conversation, I was enjoying the valuable back and forth untill the "bro science" was used so contradictingly. sorry for those who had to bare witness and most of all sorry to @Slartibarfast for turing your thread into a octagon  
ding ding ding, I'm out  
take it ease ouens, I'll take some time to reflect on my actions and try to come back a little softer for you all so I don't get so argumentative

Haha all good. So I took the plunge and flushed. Will stick to my original plan :)

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[Batista]

Interesting debate.
I personally don't flush now, but I used to when I first started growing because that's what every site says.

My experience with flushing is that you essentially telling the plant to finish regardless of what stage it's at.
This all depends on your setup also, so my issue is that I had exposed plants growing outside, and I learnt from previous years budrot and mielie worm f ups you want your plants to finish before the heavy rains and those caterpillars, but anyways back to the subject.

My new no flush made more sense once I started dialing everything in and using synthetic nutes.
I now feed up to 1500 ppm or slightly more/ less if the plant can handle it, and then do slight taper down to 800 ppm when I harvest.
I use this method for plants in dwc and in coco and found my yield to be better and plants to have more flavor when I keep feeding but slightly taper until harvest.
A large part also depends on the plant genetics, so you need to find something that is adjustable for your gene pool and growing method I guess.
The reason for the taper is that you don't want to starve or limit the plant in any way, without taper you get darkish emerald green leaves at harvest which is surely going to lead to a harsher smoke.

As for the cure, I just dry over 5-7 days and throw it into those black sealable curing bags that self burp.

My weed is delicious, burns pure white ash and I have taken samples off a plant before a traditional flush and samples from the same plant afterwards, dried them the same, cured them in 2 separate bags and I couldn't tell the difference, so that is my experience.

No flush seems like a recent thing and I have embraced it,hell, if I can cut out 3 more steps from growing my own cannabis than I will do it, getting old now!



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[PsyCLown]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:45 AM, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

with living soil you also don't need to feed nutes to the plant all the time, only when the plant is hungry, most of the time you're giving clean water. the plant itself, when it comes to the end of its cycle it will naturally take in less and less of certain compounds. if you're still giving nutes at that time, again you're wasting and you're force feeding the plant and it'll probably just go through to the next season. when the plant is finished creating buds for it's 8-16 week flower period, it won't put on more weight it wont get stronger it wont get less harsh (don't know how that's even a point in this argument) it wont do anything for you, except waste your time and money. again.

 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this statement. The plant will only take what it needs, giving the plant access to more nutes does not mean it will use them.

So whether the plant is sitting in soil or hydro, it will only use the nutes it needs when it needs them.

 

As for why continue feeding the plants in the last 2 weeks or so of flower as opposed to giving them plain water... Well for one the medium you are growing in plays a big role, in soil this is fine as the soil still contains nutrients.

In hydro or coco, different story. Put plain tap water through coco or refill a hydro res with plain tap water and you have a ppm of like 79 and a PH which is waaay too high for the plants.

The plants want to try maintain a balance as well in terms of the ppm / EC (solute concentrates - think nutes), so taking a plant from a higher EC environment of say 1.6EC and moving it into a res with an EC of basically 0.0EC will lead to the plant being unhappy and trying to balance the concentrate within the plant / root zone and the medium it is in.

I feel this will be detrimental to the plant. The correct way to go about this would be to gradually reduce the nutrient strength towards the end of flower or look at adding other things into the feed to obtain a similar PPM / EC to prevent such an extreme balancing.

 

The info you posted states that if anything, the results from a 0 day flush was preferable (smoother & better taste) but ultimately the difference is soo negligible that it does not really matter. So for someone growing in coco or hydro, it is easier to continue to feed the plants with nutes to avoid issues and ensure the PH remains in the right range.

 

For someone growing with soil, especially if you are not feeding nutes often... go for it and feed water. Don't call it a flush though. You're just not feeding nutes. Osmosis can still occur in soil, if you are feeding nutes and the EC builds up in the soil.

 

Is it necessary to do this? No, I do not feel it is and the research done by RX Green Technologies also points towards little to no benefit either way.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

 

6 hours ago, PsyCLown said:

 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this statement. The plant will only take what it needs, giving the plant access to more nutes does not mean it will use them.

 

The end of cycle flush is not flushing a lot of water through the soil till theres no more nutes left, the end of the cycle flush was just misunderstood, it's a shift to no more feed, just clean water "flush", but it happens gradually over the span of 2 weeks. or till the plant has faded. if it takes 1 week till fade then you harvest. I think that is the general consensus around the end of the cycle flush? and not flushing 20L through the medium every day for 2 weeks  I am not a complete noob, but for some reason I've never thought of the end of cycle flush as the same as toxicity flush. honestly only heard about toxicity flush when I first ran into toxicity much later in the game. for a couple years the only flushing I knew of was the end of cycle flush that just means shifting to no more nutrients.

7 hours ago, PsyCLown said:

Don't call it a flush though. You're just not feeding nutes.

Crex and I are discussing through pm and I have agreed to never call it "flush" again. 

I hope no one else does either.

✌ ✌

[Dookie69]

Great debate guys, some interesting takes on the subject.
I grow Auto’s in Autopots. All the plants (between 2 and 9 depending) get the same feed because of the common reservoir. This can be tricky when I have a mixture of Auto’s which I usually do (3 of the same seeds 3 times = 9 per grow).
A harvest for me takes over a week. I have limited time with my grow so can’t get it done faster. So I have to keep feeding because it might be 8 or 9 days from first to last. Not as bad as it sounds since some mature faster, they come down first.
I sometimes do partial harvests meaning I remove all the top bud and will leave the smaller, larf / popcorn for another week to get good light.
Anyway to cut to the chase, it’s out of necessity rather than preference that I no longer attempt a final flush (I mean an only-water for 1 or 2 weeks flush).
Instead I feed with TA Final Part, which is a ripening agent devoid of any Nitrogen. There is mention above that the plant suddenly start drinking less, much less, towards the end. This is very obvious in the Autopot res which isn’t drain to waste, so the plants only pull what they need. And since they are consuming much less, they naturally “starve” themselves as I assume they do in nature. It follows on then that even if I have a high concentration of nutes (5ml per litre), the fact that LESS of it is going into the plant must equate to a lowering of Nute strength over time. This then might suggest that perhaps those who hand water might inadvertently be over feeding plants in their later stage of life.

Anyway, I have discovered that the whole smooth vs harsh thing boils down to your drying process, and the taste boils down to your curing process.

I got paranoid I was over drying and cut it a bit short. Some of that bud was harsh. The (almost over dried) bud from the next harvest was silky smooth, burned white ash in spite of having no flush, no period of darkness. They did however have lower temps towards the end.

There is a school of thought now that flushing may improve taste, not because of leaching out excess nutes, but because of the shock presented to the plant which can trigger more terpene production….

[PsyCLown]

13 hours ago, Dookie69 said:

Great debate guys, some interesting takes on the subject.
I grow Auto’s in Autopots. All the plants (between 2 and 9 depending) get the same feed because of the common reservoir. This can be tricky when I have a mixture of Auto’s which I usually do (3 of the same seeds 3 times = 9 per grow).
A harvest for me takes over a week. I have limited time with my grow so can’t get it done faster. So I have to keep feeding because it might be 8 or 9 days from first to last. Not as bad as it sounds since some mature faster, they come down first.
I sometimes do partial harvests meaning I remove all the top bud and will leave the smaller, larf / popcorn for another week to get good light.
Anyway to cut to the chase, it’s out of necessity rather than preference that I no longer attempt a final flush (I mean an only-water for 1 or 2 weeks flush).
Instead I feed with TA Final Part, which is a ripening agent devoid of any Nitrogen. There is mention above that the plant suddenly start drinking less, much less, towards the end. This is very obvious in the Autopot res which isn’t drain to waste, so the plants only pull what they need. And since they are consuming much less, they naturally “starve” themselves as I assume they do in nature. It follows on then that even if I have a high concentration of nutes (5ml per litre), the fact that LESS of it is going into the plant must equate to a lowering of Nute strength over time. This then might suggest that perhaps those who hand water might inadvertently be over feeding plants in their later stage of life.

Anyway, I have discovered that the whole smooth vs harsh thing boils down to your drying process, and the taste boils down to your curing process.

I got paranoid I was over drying and cut it a bit short. Some of that bud was harsh. The (almost over dried) bud from the next harvest was silky smooth, burned white ash in spite of having no flush, no period of darkness. They did however have lower temps towards the end.

There is a school of thought now that flushing may improve taste, not because of leaching out excess nutes, but because of the shock presented to the plant which can trigger more terpene production….

There are better ways to trigger an immune response and I feel you'd want that immune response earlier in flower... Perhaps even in veg.

More research likely needs to be done on this for cannabis for us to really know though.

 

Plants certainly start drinking less as they are reaching their end of life. Nutes can also build up in your medium over time, especially if one does not reduce / taper the nute strength towards the end of flower and this can lead to plants being burnt a bit.