Whats wrong with this clone?

[Island Gerl]

Hello  

So I just started a grow room. 
I have clones. 
 

So currently I have a 16 m2 room with 25 plants in.
They are Elvis clones.
I received the clones on Friday and planted them in OrgasoilLux. 

There are 4 x 600 Watt HPS lights with the magnetic ballast and reflectors. 

Temp & Humidity sensors and sprinkler system. 
And an extractor fan. 

There are also 2 fans blowing air around the room. 

Currently the lights are switched on 24 h/day only 2 at a time. 

Room temp is between 27 and 29 and humidity is 75% now. 

Extractor is off because it takes all the humidity away. 

If all the lights are on then it gets too hot.

Humidity is created by hanging wet towels in the room. 
 

the question: the leaves looks like the edges are curling inwards? And some leaves look wrinkled. 
Can it maybe be the lights that burning them? 
 

TIA 

 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

I like what I am hearing and seeing so far huge project to take on for a new grower! more power to you man  

Sounds like you have a nice setup there, enough space to grow a shit ton of weed. that's for sure! 

Setup also seems like it has everything it needs. Just out of curiosity, how big is the extractor fan for that big room? 

I see you using HPS blubs to veg the clones. Is there a reason for this or was MH bulbs just not an option? MH bulbs gives off a much cooler white light that's more desired by the plant during veg. just a  from my side, however vegging with the HPS is far from the worst thing, hell I've seen people veg with 3000k CFL bulbs and get away with it just cause it's the only option they have for the time being. no problem with it, but the plants will obviously grow much faster and happier if you give them exactly what they want when they want it. 

Touching on the question you asked, the light may be a contributing factor to the leaf curl, yes. What you have there is a form of "leaf canoe". The upward curl of the serrated edges of the leaf. 

There are other forms of leaf curl, all indicating different things.

Most common cases for leaf canoe, in this order is: 

1.Heat stress

2.Light intensity stress

3.Overwater stress

4.Overfeed stress. 

Let's look at them all individually.

1. The temperatures you're giving us seems A-OK. So scratch that one. 

2. Light intensity? Could be, because your HPS is more for flowering. the difference between a veg light and flower light is during veg the light needs to be much softer, plants prefer the "cool white" spectrum during this time. during flower your plant wants "warm yellow" light and a lot of it. you'll see indoor growers dim their lights during veg and during flower it's full blast. flower lights are generally more intense and powerfull than veg lights. 

3. Do you let the soil dry between waterings? How big is the pot and how big is the plant? Can the plant suck up all the moisture out of the soil before the next watering? If not you're over watering. 

4. Do you have a PPM/EC probe? Can show you a test you could do to check the amount of nutrients in the soil. Orgasoilux is known to be a little hot (too much nutrients), because they jam pack that bag with enough nutrients to help you through till mid flower sometimes, but that could mean the soil is a little too hot for the younglings. You're still not burning tips so you're still safe, but this means no nutrients for a while. Just clean water till they start asking for nutes.

Hope this helps! 

[ORGANinc.]

Induction(if you have one running) should be running 24/7, if not, the plants get to a point where they are basically holding their breathe as the PPm of CO2 drops significantly. 

Extraction can also run constantly, or when humidity gets to high.

Given the size of the grow, both are very necessary

Edited April 13, 2022 by ORGANinc.

[Island Gerl]

Hi and wow thanks for all the information. This is amazing feedback. 
 

Oky so I will answer the questions you asked me 

I did not know that the HPS lights is more for flowering than for the veg state. So I am stuck with 4 of them for now. Can I mitigate this by doing a 18/6 hour on off split? Currently they are on 24/7 and 2 at a time. 
I also raised the lights about 30cm higher. 
 

The extractor is 200mm and not on all the time as it sucks the humidity out to about 35%. Should I get a humidifier and switch the extractor on more often? The plants have just been transplanted (4 days ago) into 25L pots. 
 

At the moment the plants get a cup of water every 2 days. 
 

I don’t have a PPM/EC probe yet

Then a question - is induction air inflow from outside? The only air coming from outside is basically an opening in the wall and then a normal fan in front of the opening blowing in air. 
 

What would the ideal Humidity be at this stage? I am following a basic VPD chart. And currently using the green blocks… 

See attached plant size pictures and also the chart that I use. 
 

Also just a side note: the temperature spiked to about 31 yesterday. I am thinking of getting a portable aircon. 

I really appreciate the info
 

 

[PsyCLown]

A single portable aircon in that sized space with HID lights is not going to cut it, especially in summer when heatwaves hit.

You can simply change the bulb from HPS to MH and then change back when it is flower time.

 

Best to have the lights on an 18/6 cycle and then change to 12/12 when it is time to flower. Do not rotate having some lights on and then others on - if you have plants under the lights then have those lights on, according to the timer.

[Totemic]

Do you have 4 x 600w covering an entire 16m2?

1 600w in my mind is good to veg upto 1.5m2, and for flower upto 1.2m2, but more ideally only 1m2

You probably could get away with it for veg. 

What height are those bulbs from the top of the plants? 

[TikyIckee]

Hey @Island Gerl

25 ladies! Wow you sure are a believer inGo big or Go home. You the gal that shows up at the shooting range with a bazooka

Been  reading this thread with quite a bit excitement. You go girl , you going to learn some good  $&it here and you going to learn fast. 

I see the boys had offered some excellent advice and they definitely got you covered. My 2c for now is don't stress too much about temp for now ( 31 degree spike not great but can be managed) , winter is here and the advantage of your hps lights is that they give off much needed warmth that's great for veging plants. Do however monitor the temp and if it gets too hot switch on your fans to get rid of too much hot air. I have my exhaust fan mounted up top where the hot air rises and is easily removed. You ideally want to keep temp in the 18-25 degree range. As PsyClown advised 18/6 is the way to go. Your plants need time to rest and it's in this time that most growth occurs (imo). If you're a gym bunny it's work out and then rest so your body can build muscle.

Although hps is not ideal for vegging, it's not a train smash either. Yupp get yourself a MH bulb, which would be a quick fix with your current setup or just start with your current HPS bulb high up and lower it as your plants grow bigger and stronger. Looks good to me from your pics. 

At this stage a 60-65% humidity is desirable. Noticed you mentioned your humidity was at 75 %. Your fans would also do well to to lower humidity if it gets too high. Remember high humidity and high temp are ideal conditions for dreaded wpm so monitor closely and let your fans do the work for now. If you growing in jhb our winter humidity is generally low and i find there's no need to a dehumidifier if you get those fans dialled in well. I'm able to regulate my temp and humidity by running my exhaust fan for 15min every hour but this would depend on your grow room size, number of plants, watering schedule etc. I'd advise getting your fan on a timer switch. Just play around with it, you'll find the sweet spot.

Rooting for you girrrl. Good luck and have fun. Peace ✌ 

 

[Prom]

Light matters  i repeat it rather often. 

I would say is heat stress, you dont have enough light to stress them. 16m2... 4x4 meter. I see no way how you will get dense flower material, just not enough energy to pump into the ladies. 2400 watt HID light.. that is half as efficient to v3 LED tech, winter no issue, your lights produce more heat then light. Who told you to buy HID... kick his nuts! I use 1900 watts LED light on a 2.4x2.4 area. Friend uses 2400 watts. I try energy efficiency, he just wants big buds  In your case, i would x4 your light for flowering. Eskom will giggle as you will have to bring in a big ass AC too. I would guess 40k a month for electricity, so learn to grow before you go big... it costs. My 2.4x2.4 sets me down 10k a month (summer). 

Go LED, import lights and drivers. Just did, 16 x 120watt QBs, drivers, no dimmers. With import customs charges, quite acurate 25k rand. You would need at least 54 QBs on a 16m2 area... and with that amount of light, very good ventilation. Winter easy, summer you need AC. 2 to 3 20k btu units should do. 

Ventilation. As many inliners blow in, you suck out. Plants like even pressure. Inside you need a lot of air moving, stagnant pockets will not grow. No co2, no carbon to build stuff ^^ 4mx4m area, at least 8 40cm fans to shift air... you go bigger, you can go less fans.

sorry, bad news... but your setup isnt working in that configuration

Edited April 13, 2022 by Prom
the word is ass ^^

[PsyCLown]

16 hours ago, Prom said:

My 2.4x2.4 sets me down 10k a month (summer). 

Yikes, a single 2.4 x 2.4 tent with an aircon and R10k on electricity? How much do you pay per unit?

[Prom]

2 minutes ago, PsyCLown said:

Yikes, a single 2.4 x 2.4 tent with an aircon and R10k on electricity? How much do you pay per unit?

Mhhh i can tell you once all tents run at the new spot  unit price goes up the more you buy. The last week of the month is the most frustrating  i took the 20.5% Eskom price hike in those 10k... was on 8.3k before, since the 2 ACs are powered down, life is better, Jan and Feb were nasty hot this year. 

[PsyCLown]

Mhhh i can tell you once all tents run at the new spot  unit price goes up the more you buy. The last week of the month is the most frustrating  i took the 20.5% Eskom price hike in those 10k... was on 8.3k before, since the 2 ACs are powered down, life is better, Jan and Feb were nasty hot this year. 

I just remembered that you run autos so not 12/12 for flowering.

Although still, one tent R10k seems too high. Even with an aircon.

Perhaps for multiple tents, I can understand R10k per month on electricity - especially in summer with heatwaves.

Sent from my OnePlus 9RT 5G using Tapatalk

[Prom]

also... to plant autos in their final pot is a good idea. Do the same with a photo, isnt. Potting up gives you a better root system and speeds up their grow rate. 

Till you get the hang how much water the strain consumes, lift the pot. Heavy, no water, feather light, water till run off and let dry up again. If you keep the medium to wet they slow down and if you over water for to long, they will show you the finger. The wet dry cycle is very important.

I saw no fertilizers, is the organolux or how ever soil ^^ all in one?? You need NPK, silica and amino acids. I do not like all in one soils. Just to mention that too  

Put your pots close together and hang the light according to instructions you got with the grow lights. Those 4x600 should light a 2.4x2.4 area, use what your lights can flower or you end with to many plants to finish. 

After this grow you will understand all way better, isn't rocket science what we do... but starting to drive a car in the formular 1.... will leave you frustrated. Scale down to what your lights can handle is my suggestion, you should end with a result you enjoy... just... add!! fans. I run 2 x 150mm inliners to suck filtered air in and 2, same models, to suck out. That is your air exchange. 6 times tent volume per minute is a good amount. And then you need mixers to blow over the plants... as much as you can without damaging the plants.

Growing indoor isnt difficult, but also not that easy 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Prom
english difg

[Prom]

my clone 2.4x2.4 sucks 4k per month... before the price hike. HID lamps generate double the heat... you need double the cooling power. He can be happy it only draws 10k a month... we talk 4 x 1.2x1.2, isnt small  he will easy run 5500 watts on light times with ac and 400 watt during dark time... if it gets cold in winter, little heater... lets say 400watt on top.

And i use very energy efficient inliners... 10k bro, with the april price hike, that is what i expect... will be more.. as i added a tent 

[TikyIckee]

Hey guys, could you imagine this conversation around a fire? 

Here's the LD. We all had to start somewhere. It's going to be a wild ride, but stay positive, deal with things as they arise, you grow space is going to change as you go along, but every time is going to get better, until it reaches a point that works.

An HPS might not be efficient but some people drive big v8s. You will find in time that you might add more HPS, maybe LED, maybe a combination of both. 

You might get away with vegging all those plants and add more lights, you might have to move some outside or give them away ( I'll take em ) when it's time to flower, there's plenty options if you stay committed. 

With 25 plants you've just placed a bigger bet but greater risk, greater reward. You might not be winning any cannabis cups on your first grow but you will definitely be one step closer.

Time for some coffee and cheesecake. 

Peace ✌ 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

I would say, advertise all your HIDs for sale asap, the more you use them the harder they'll sell. same time get a order ready for some LEDs, like prom mentioned he got some qbs off alibaba for good price, you could get something muuuuuuuuch better suited for your space, you could get a very very very cheap deal on LED components off digikey then source some local aluminium extrusions and build your own LED like a lot of us, we'll help you step by step through it all, then as soon as you have someone interested in the HIDs place the order for the LEDs, tell the HID guy they just need to wait till you got your LEDs to replace them, the day you get your LEDs you let the HID guy know his stuff is ready for collection. 

it's very simple really

then you don't have to worry about aircons and paying through your ass when the electricity bill comes around. 

a reduction in monthly running cost is where it's at man, you don't wana harvest couple kilos, but then you pay the same price to Eskont that you would've paid to some street character for a bulk sale. 

also don't have to replace bulbs or ballasts and there's just generally much less stress with LED. 

so it's a no brainer for sure

less heat, less maintenance and PT, less money spent on maintenance, one thing it has more of though, is light. which again is another one for the win. so like a win win win situation. 

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

I maintain my stance, 31°C will not stress them unless they under watered.

what's clear cut though is that HPS is not meant to veg clones. and like you gathered by now, light does matter and more so "what kind of light" and "what distance"

test it out yourself. get a clone put it under 5000K 50w LED at 40cm see how she does, then put a clone under a 3000K 50w CFL at 20cm, problem will look similar to what you have here. wrong kind of light.

might be a bit confusing, but a light can be too intense and not strong enough to grow a plant at the same time.

could also be watering problem as you running on sprinkler system? easy to have either over or under water problems with young clones especially in big pots too. 

do you lift the pots before watering to make sure they need warer?

also they don't wilt before watering, that would be considered waiting a bit too long.

could also just be cz your in Orgasoilux, I've toasted a plant in Orgasoilux with clean water, so I know they make their soil hot. no questions. this shouldn't be a problem though and will self rectify by just keep watering with clean water and no nutes. 

clones in fresh soil, even not so hot soil still only needs water for a while. 

organic growers have long been throwing around the term "it's organic it can't harm your plants" and nothing has ever been further from the truth. in some cases organics can fuck your plant worse than synthetics and it's very very easy to over do it wirh organics, because of the kak people been saying about moering everything, anything and their aunties in the soil if it's organic.

infact, when it comes to organic, less is more. golden rule brother. 

I am gona repeat that for those in the back that can't hear, WITH ORGANICS LESS IS MORE! 

it's a fine art, it's not all about light, but if you have the watering conditions in check and you have the nutrients in check it's back to square one, the kind of light. 

[PsyCLown]

On 4/15/2022 at 6:28 AM, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

test it out yourself. get a clone put it under 5000K 50w LED at 40cm see how she does, then put a clone under a 3000K 50w CFL at 20cm, problem will look similar to what you have here. wrong kind of light.

I need to disagree with you here. If they are decent diodes, such as the Samsung LM301B/H then 3000K for vegging a plant is not a problem at all.

I have done it many times before, used both 3000K and 3500K with excellent results. The amount of blue light a cannabis plant requires is not all that much and 3000K full spectrum still gives enough blue. You can certainly flower with 3000K and 3500K.

As soon as one starts to go 4000K upwards then the light starts to become a bit too specific IMO and leaning more towards a light I'd only want to use for veg. 3000 to 3500K I feel is the perfect combination for veg & flower, also keeping in mind plants are in veg for a fraction of the time they are in flower for (generally speaking, depends on how one runs their grow though).

 

The kelvin of HID lights might work as you described, although for decent LED diodes 3000K for veg is fine.  

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

2 minutes ago, PsyCLown said:

I need to disagree with you here. If they are decent diodes, such as the Samsung LM301B/H then 3000K for vegging a plant is not a problem at all.

I have done it many times before, used both 3000K and 3500K with excellent results. The amount of blue light a cannabis plant requires is not all that much and 3000K full spectrum still gives enough blue. You can certainly flower with 3000K and 3500K.

As soon as one starts to go 4000K upwards then the light starts to become a bit too specific IMO and leaning more towards a light I'd only want to use for veg. 3000 to 3500K I feel is the perfect combination for veg & flower, also keeping in mind plants are in veg for a fraction of the time they are in flower for (generally speaking, depends on how one runs their grow though).

 

The kelvin of HID lights might work as you described, although for decent LED diodes 3000K for veg is fine.  

I agree, but OP is messing with HID and not LED, so the point I wanted to get across is that there are always better options to go with if you're only shooting for "being able to veg", why not spend less money and make it optimal? Move over to LED and care less about light stress. What I meant with my statement of putting a clone - young sensitive plant that stresses very easily - under 5000K LED at 40cm and comparing it to 3500K CFL at 20cm, like I am refering to here .....

On 4/15/2022 at 6:28 AM, Naughty.Psychonaut said:

test it out yourself. get a clone put it under 5000K 50w LED at 40cm see how she does, then put a clone under a 3000K 50w CFL at 20cm, problem will look similar to what you have here. wrong kind of light.

... is that the CFL will be a problem, because its not always about Watt/Kelvin/Lumins it's also about how you hang the thing to make the most out of the micromols/second that the light produces, and usually a CFL is known to not be strong enough to grow a plant, but it can easily stress your plants also if you use it wrong or the wrong kinda one. might be optimal at another time in the plants life, but saying it's OK to go with only one spectrum for the plants whole life is fine, but then you are gona have moments when the plant goes through a little bit of stress.  

I think about it like in nature, the sun doesn't stay the same all season through. 

if OP insists on keeping the HIDs I would say it's in his best interest to get some MH bulbs for veg, wont hurt, will it?

LED is much more forgiving for the most part anyway, another win for the LEDs but it can also be used incorrectly!