Persistent Claw For Past 3 Grows

[PippinTook]

Hi all as the title says I've been dealing with cases of The Claw, or Nitrogen Toxicity I believe. The plants have always harvested fine though I suspect they weren't at the highest quality they could be for this clawing reason.

Growing medium: soil - Freedom Farms Premium Classic

Nutrients: Terra Aquatica 3 Part Flora series (Micro, Grow, Bloom), Kushy brand Cal-Mag granules supplement. I use a generic pH down solution to pH the water.

I am currently working on a 60% strength dilution already which makes the nutrient toxicity so puzzling. The N-P-K of each:

Micro: 5-0-1

Grow: 3-1-6

Bloom: 0-5-4

Have I missed any info?

I've attached images of my nutrient solution chart and leaves of the plants.

Thanks all for your time trying to help me out.

[Ill_Evan]

Is it the same strain?

[PippinTook]

29 minutes ago, Ill_Evan said:

Is it the same strain?

Yes they are 4 Blue Dream photoperiod plants. By Atlas Seeds I believe.

[Totemic]

Those are mineral salt nutrients you are using in an organic medium. It is going to do this every time. Either switch to plain coco/perlite and continue on the nutes you have for your next grow, or change your nutes to organic ones

[Ill_Evan]

11 minutes ago, PippinTook said:

Yes they are 4 Blue Dream photoperiod plants. By Atlas Seeds I believe.

It could be an expression of that specific strain. I do note that you are using what is considered an "organic soil" but also using salt nutrients. In my opinion there could be a bunch of stuff in that soil that doesn't end up getting used because your plants will most likely just use the salt nutes you provide. 

I see @Totemic ninja'd me on that note 

[PippinTook]

@Totemic@Ill_Evan

Damn, always surprises me how little I actually know about growing cannabis.

Are you guys basically saying that there are nutrients already in the soil which are being taken up by the plants along with the salt nutrients and this is causing a nutrient toxicity?
I'm pretty strapped for cash at the moment, and switching them over to coco isn't an option (they're already established in the soil). Are brand new, organic nutrients absolutely necessary or can I just tone down the amount of salt nutrients I'm using until I can afford organic nutes? Let's say a 20% dilution? 
Could you perhaps drop me a brand of tried and tested organic nutes that I can go do my own research on? To me it sounds like organic nutes are the right way to go so I might just bite the bullet.

What confuses me as well is that there is a recommended dilution ratio for Soil on the side of the Tera Aquatica nute bottles.
 

Edited February 21, 2023 by PippinTook
Addition at the end

[Totemic]

Yes FF premium classic is an amended soil and has enough nutrients to sustain a vegging plant for more than a month. By adding salt nutrients you are overloading the soil. 

The Biobizz range works well with FF premium. 

Changing anything for this grow will likely mess it all up. What you can do is to stop with the calmag and the Nitrogen. Just give plain water for 2 or 3 waterings. 

You far into flower are you? 

 

 

[Ill_Evan]

8 minutes ago, PippinTook said:

@Totemic@Ill_Evan

Damn, always surprises me how little I actually know about growing cannabis.

Are you guys basically saying that there are nutrients already in the soil which are being taken up by the plants along with the salt nutrients and this is causing a nutrient toxicity?
I'm pretty strapped for cash at the moment, and switching them over to coco isn't an option (they're already established in the soil). Are brand new, organic nutrients absolutely necessary or can I just tone down the amount of salt nutrients I'm using until I can afford organic nutes? Let's say a 20% dilution? 
Could you perhaps drop me a brand of tried and tested organic nutes that I can go do my own research on? To me it sounds like organic nutes are the right way to go so I might just bite the bullet.

What confuses me as well is that there is a recommended dilution ratio for Soil on the side of the Tera Aquatica nute bottles.
 

I wouldn't change anything on this grow. You have mentioned you've done three grows already so I would just finish up the current one and make changes on the next. Don't lower your salt feed, I don't think that's necessary. There's a chance the salt nutrients have already disrupted the microbiology within the soil already to the point that your plants are only feeding off the salt nutrients. 

I think you will quickly find that switching to coco will be much, much more affordable than switching to liquid organic nutrients. 

[Totemic]

Also, what are you adjusting your pH to? Salts in coco usually needs adjust to 5.8, organics is 6.2. 

If you switch to organic nutes the need to pH will also fall away. FF premium buffers its own pH at 6.2-6.5

[PippinTook]

2 minutes ago, Totemic said:

Yes FF premium classic is an amended soil and has enough nutrients to sustain a vegging plant for more than a month. By adding salt nutrients you are overloading the soil. 

The Biobizz range works well with FF premium. 

Changing anything for this grow will likely mess it all up. What you can do is to stop with the calmag and the Nitrogen. Just give plain water for 2 or 3 waterings. 

You far into flower are you? 

 

 

They were germinated on the 13th Jan 2023 so they are currently only 39 days old. Still need to fill out the scrog so it will be a short while til flower.
If I'm able, would you recommend I plain water for 2 - 3 waterings, and then switch to a mix of BioBizz nutrients? I've found a feeding schedule for Biobizz nutes specifically for Freedom Farms soil. Plus the price of the Biobizz nutes was surprisingly lower than I expected, and I believe switching nutes is an option.

[PippinTook]

1 minute ago, Totemic said:

Also, what are you adjusting your pH to? Salts in coco usually needs adjust to 5.8, organics is 6.2. 

If you switch to organic nutes the need to pH will also fall away. FF premium buffers its own pH at 6.2-6.5

pH adjusted to as close to 6 as possible

[PippinTook]

3 minutes ago, Ill_Evan said:

I wouldn't change anything on this grow. You have mentioned you've done three grows already so I would just finish up the current one and make changes on the next. Don't lower your salt feed, I don't think that's necessary. There's a chance the salt nutrients have already disrupted the microbiology within the soil already to the point that your plants are only feeding off the salt nutrients. 

I think you will quickly find that switching to coco will be much, much more affordable than switching to liquid organic nutrients. 

Plants just don't look healthy and it makes me sad. It's still early on and I'd like to be proactive if at all possible without being hasty

[Totemic]

Its a risk imo. Even though they are still in veg, changing nutes mid grow is generally a disaster. You could give the medium a real good flush and just give plain water until the plants start looking hungry, then switch to biobizz range.  

[Prom]

There is hardy anything to add... the generic pH solution you used was most likely chemical... what sets all you used to chemical and kills your micro organisms. With FF stick to biological fertilizer parts only and skip any pH tests. Or go Coco/Hydro and stick to salts and chemicals only and use generic pH to get it in the right region. BioBizz still costs a bit and one drop of chemical pH down will render the biological advantage obsolete. 

To get some flora back, Biodyne Environoc 401.. micro organisms in liquid form.. get a small bottle and add accordingly. Keep chemicals out of soil.. ruins most of the positive effects to grow in soil. If you use fertilizers killing living things.. stick to coco, rock wool or DWC.

[Ill_Evan]

11 minutes ago, Prom said:

There is hardy anything to add... the generic pH solution you used was most likely chemical... what sets all you used to chemical and kills your micro organisms. With FF stick to biological fertilizer parts only and skip any pH tests. Or go Coco/Hydro and stick to salts and chemicals only and use generic pH to get it in the right region. BioBizz still costs a bit and one drop of chemical pH down will render the biological advantage obsolete. 

This is why I suggested maybe finishing the grow as is. I don't know how well it will go trying to reestablish the soil microbiology midway through veg. If I was truly desperate I'd clone what I can and start fresh, I've been forced to do it before. 

I stand by my original suggestion of finishing up the current grow as is with the salt nutes and then making fresh changes for the upcoming grow. 

[PippinTook]

I've only ever grown this way, so I appreciate all the knowledge being shared, thank you.

What I'm going to do: I'm going to feed straight pH'd water for 5 feeds. Then I'll resume feeding with a 20% diluted nutrient solution. Maybe I'll be able to uncurl the clawed leaves a little, I don't know I guess I'll see.

In the meantime while I try salvage the grow I'll be doing more research on the correct growing medium for me and the supplements that need to go with them. Coco has always interested me.

Am I missing anything else important? Probably haha. 

Also now's a good a time as ever to do a grow diary, so I'll do that too and we'll see where the grow goes
 

Edited February 21, 2023 by PippinTook
afterthoughts

[Weskush]

I started off with the salt based nutes. Rather expensive but the plants ended up decent. My last 2 grows i went the homemade supersoil route and not looking back at all. Way less maintenance and zero deficiencies plus ive got some cash to spare on genetics. Also take into account that ive only grown outdoor.

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

when can we collectively start boycotting synthetic nutrients???? 

here is my motivation 

I remember trying to explain this in 2019 and people got so damn butt hurt when I said I strongly believe synthetic nutes just shouldn't exist. Personally I hate the stuff with a burning passion and I've got good reason to. 

[Prom]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:23 PM, PippinTook said:

I've only ever grown this way, so I appreciate all the knowledge being shared, thank you.

What I'm going to do: I'm going to feed straight pH'd water for 5 feeds. Then I'll resume feeding with a 20% diluted nutrient solution. Maybe I'll be able to uncurl the clawed leaves a little, I don't know I guess I'll see.

In the meantime while I try salvage the grow I'll be doing more research on the correct growing medium for me and the supplements that need to go with them. Coco has always interested me.

Am I missing anything else important? Probably haha. 

Also now's a good a time as ever to do a grow diary, so I'll do that too and we'll see where the grow goes
 

The damage is done and will not reverse. Keep an eye on the new growth coming, that tells you if you have things back in order. Flush soil always with rain water.. if you use tap water (Fluor added and hence chemical), you are killing your microbes in the soil. A proper pot flush.. 10 liter pot.. let about 60 liters run through, 6-10 times pot size. Then you know you start on a blank sheet.. and you can go right back to normal dosage, no reason to go from lock out or heat stress to starvation mode. If you want to pH biological fertilizers, use biological UPs and Downs (Lemon juice, vinegar, liquid lime stone,...).

If you run a diary and put every feeding detail in, you will get best advise... knowing the history of a plant helps one 'shit-load' ^^

[Naughty.Psychonaut]

always good to also add a bunch of microbial life after any kind of flush as they're waterbourne aswell as soilbourne, not only the chemicals kill them, you also remove a lot of them by just the flush, but I mean if you have been using synthetic nutes in soil you propbably don't have a lot of microbial activity going on anyway. and if you continue to use synthetic nutes in soil this will continue to happen. It's like oil and water, the two don't mix. 

[iGrowDagga]

Good day sir, 

+1 for the organic route. 

You can put all the salts away and go find/build quality soil / compost. 

Spray things to keep pests minimal, like BioNeem Weekly. 

Also, Epsom salt is the cheapest and most effective thing I have found to bring a plant back to life. 

[Spaidan]

On 2/21/2023 at 3:02 PM, Prom said:

There is hardy anything to add... the generic pH solution you used was most likely chemical... what sets all you used to chemical and kills your micro organisms. With FF stick to biological fertilizer parts only and skip any pH tests. Or go Coco/Hydro and stick to salts and chemicals only and use generic pH to get it in the right region. BioBizz still costs a bit and one drop of chemical pH down will render the biological advantage obsolete. 

To get some flora back, Biodyne Environoc 401.. micro organisms in liquid form.. get a small bottle and add accordingly. Keep chemicals out of soil.. ruins most of the positive effects to grow in soil. If you use fertilizers killing living things.. stick to coco, rock wool or DWC.

Quick question regarding Environoc 401 microbes. Can I mix the microbes with molasses inside the same container before applying to my plant? And can I apply Environoc through flower? some websites say you must stop use when you are 2 weeks into flower? I don't see how added microbes to the soil should be stopped during the flowering phase?

[Prom]

19 hours ago, Spaidan said:

Quick question regarding Environoc 401 microbes. Can I mix the microbes with molasses inside the same container before applying to my plant? And can I apply Environoc through flower? some websites say you must stop use when you are 2 weeks into flower? I don't see how added microbes to the soil should be stopped during the flowering phase?

If they don't say on the bottle to stop during flower.. you can ignore any website telling you otherwise. The main point is simple.. the producer would tell you in the first place if you could run in an issue... they are usually double careful what they recommend. I used 401 during flower.. not on all feedings but twice a month I added a normal dosage. See no reason why you can't mix the microbes with sugar.. they might actually like that.

Hope that helped ^^

 

Edited February 10 by Prom
the(y) ^^ fast fingers